Replacement for Lavin

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cjfish

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Re: Replacement for Lavin
« Reply #100 on: November 22, 2014, 11:06:59 AM »
Agreed, Our fan are awful.  At The Providence/Albany game last week P had a nearly full house of loud dedicated fans.  What did SJU draw in the equivalent NJIT game? 

It's not a fair comparison.  NYC is a pro town with 3 hockey teams, 2 football teams, 2 basketball teams and 2 baseball teams.  Heck, we have a tennis major and are about to have 2 MISL teams.  Providence has a minor league hockey team?

PC is back page news and we're buried under an avalanche of pro news and advertising.

If the team doesn't hold up it's end of the bargain, the fans won't either.

Attendance for us is a win or die situation.  Always has been...always will be.

It is a more then fair comparison.  Providence may be a one act town but they re drawing from perhaps a million people, not 15 million.  SJU is the only college act in town worth following, everyone else is 2nd rate except maybe for Seton Hall, but they are on the fringe in Jersey.  Only the Knicks and Nets are valid mentions in your comment since only they compete for pubic interest after football season.  (Hockey being a fringe sport when considering the entire sports base).  Im not a Providence fan but their fans are rabid and they show up.  Part of the problem is the NY fan is jaded and quickly loses interest in a loser, and that is what SJU has become.   Support from the alumni and students should be consistent but, instead, is pitiful, no enthusiasm.  The general public will get excited if SJU produces a good product.  I didn't see a lack of support when the redmen had consistently good teams prior to 1990.  Part of the recruiting problem is the mausoleum that Carneseca Arena and the Garden have become.  What talented kid wants to play in front of quiet crowds and empty seats.  Some of the games on campus have to excitement level of a younger men's league game.

Re: Replacement for Lavin
« Reply #101 on: November 22, 2014, 11:28:53 AM »
History, even very recent history, shows that if the team has a good season and generates some juice, fans will come.  That doesn't erase the issue of student interest, as Moose correctly points out.  But alumni and garden variety NY sports fans who get on the Johnnies bandwagon will show when we have a chance at even a semi-solid season (i.e., NCAA tourney worthy).

We had about 10,000 (maybe more) against G-town last year on a Sunday night, and I thought the crowd was great.  Yes, you still see plenty of empty seats in the Garden when only 10,000 show.  But 10,000 is still a lot more than many college programs get.  The only thing that will garner consistent student interest is producing a team that is pretty good on a year-in, year-out basis.

Tiznow

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Re: Replacement for Lavin
« Reply #102 on: November 22, 2014, 11:59:28 AM »
Our student support sucks.  Kudos to the few hundred that do a great job coming out to every game.  Where are the rest of them?

Providence has a hockey team that draws great student support.  They played on the same night as one of the hoops home games.  It was no problem up there.  The students at PC get out and support their teams.  SJU's students don't.

It starts with the students.  The crowd at our games is older than the crowd at my local OTB.

Re: Replacement for Lavin
« Reply #103 on: November 22, 2014, 12:23:05 PM »
Our student support sucks.  Kudos to the few hundred that do a great job coming out to every game.  Where are the rest of them?

Providence has a hockey team that draws great student support.  They played on the same night as one of the hoops home games.  It was no problem up there.  The students at PC get out and support their teams.  SJU's students don't.

It starts with the students.  The crowd at our games is older than the crowd at my local OTB.

This is so true.

jr49

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Re: Replacement for Lavin
« Reply #104 on: November 22, 2014, 01:45:47 PM »
We went from pathetically bad under Roberts to mediocre under Lavin. Not a high bar but an improvment, and the next level needs to be great sustainability....I think many of you forgot have bad it was...There was no guarantee of even making the NIT.

Lavin did more with Roberts kids then Roberts ever did. Doesn't Lavin get credit for hiring Dunlap? In an orgnization the person is charges gets credit and blame depending on who they hire and the results they do. The Spurs have a great owner because he hired great people to run the Spurs. This is the first time since Dunlap that we have an asst. coach stay for a year. Let's see what Whitesell can do....

@mullin if Lavin a solid class do you think he should stick with them? Or why bother even recruiting at all?

Everyone keeps saying there is a great coach for SJUBB that is waiting to be found...After what would be 5 coaches, I just don't believe in "well the next guy will be better" theory anymore.  If they are planning to move on from Lavin I hope they are building a plan now...

As sad as it is, we lucked out with Lavin and that was with SJU in the old BE. For the betterment of the program we need to do well this year, and Lavin needs a to recruit a strong class, and give him a 2-3 yrs extension and then maybe move on from there...
. If he blows this year he is probably gone and there is another sucky major rebuilding program in the new BE...How does this look good for the school and the conference?

This is why that I hope he does well on all fronts because he is a personality that the school and the BE needs. The given that we are a great program again.


59, my figure has always been it takes time to get a program off the ground. What troubles me was neglecting the 2014 class with this team so thin in the front court. If CO left, the season turns out to be a throw away. That would have seemed to be blatant  neglect, even to Lavin backers.Would coming away with a couple of 3 star bigs be such a tough nut?

nudginator59

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Re: Replacement for Lavin
« Reply #105 on: November 22, 2014, 02:05:52 PM »
We went from pathetically bad under Roberts to mediocre under Lavin. Not a high bar but an improvment, and the next level needs to be great sustainability....I think many of you forgot have bad it was...There was no guarantee of even making the NIT.

Lavin did more with Roberts kids then Roberts ever did. Doesn't Lavin get credit for hiring Dunlap? In an orgnization the person is charges gets credit and blame depending on who they hire and the results they do. The Spurs have a great owner because he hired great people to run the Spurs. This is the first time since Dunlap that we have an asst. coach stay for a year. Let's see what Whitesell can do....

@mullin if Lavin a solid class do you think he should stick with them? Or why bother even recruiting at all?

Everyone keeps saying there is a great coach for SJUBB that is waiting to be found...After what would be 5 coaches, I just don't believe in "well the next guy will be better" theory anymore.  If they are planning to move on from Lavin I hope they are building a plan now...

As sad as it is, we lucked out with Lavin and that was with SJU in the old BE. For the betterment of the program we need to do well this year, and Lavin needs a to recruit a strong class, and give him a 2-3 yrs extension and then maybe move on from there...
. If he blows this year he is probably gone and there is another sucky major rebuilding program in the new BE...How does this look good for the school and the conference?

This is why that I hope he does well on all fronts because he is a personality that the school and the BE needs. The given that we are a great program again.


59, my figure has always been it takes time to get a program off the ground. What troubles me was neglecting the 2014 class with this team so thin in the front court. If CO left, the season turns out to be a throw away. That would have seemed to be blatant  neglect, even to Lavin backers.Would coming away with a couple of 3 star bigs be such a tough nut?

Jr, Lavin is definitely trending downward. He failed to live up to his own expectations last year, failed to recruit well for 14, and whiffed on his first big recruit for 15

My point is that this season and next season are not losses yet. If he is succesful over the next month or so, which I hope everyone is rooting for, that then that sets SJU up well for the BE. If he does land a solid recruiting class that is a positive trend towards the future. Hopefully he has back up plans for CO and Jordan. I know this is a lot of ifs, but I disagree at this point to get rid of a coach that really only failed at one year...Which was last year.

If things fall apart early, burn the house down and get rid of him and start rebuilding...again.
If the team is doing well, this will help bring in recruits which will help rebuild the program faster.  I just don't understand why we want to burn everything down before we know how the season and the next recruiting class goes. If he does well give him a shorter extension, keep his feet to the fire and hold him accoutable moving forward.

I personally much rather have a team with some experience when a new coach takes over (if need be) then to have a new coach AND he has to recruit in the same year....I think that sets us back even further especially with another mid major coach (most likely) taking over the program.

There is a lot of transition at SJU across the orginzation and another major decisions can't be good for the program or the school, or even for the BE.
Cougar O' Malley

nudginator59

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Re: Replacement for Lavin
« Reply #106 on: November 22, 2014, 02:06:41 PM »
Here's a link from he NYP about early signing period. SJU got a D.
http://nypost.com/2014/11/22/rutgers-hofstra-local-area-kings-of-early-signing-period/
Cougar O' Malley

DFF6

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Re: Replacement for Lavin
« Reply #107 on: November 22, 2014, 10:56:27 PM »

Tiznow

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Re: Replacement for Lavin
« Reply #108 on: November 22, 2014, 11:44:11 PM »
Phil Mushnick throwing another log on the fire

http://nypost.com/2014/11/22/why-must-steve-lavin-recruit-the-sketchiest-characters/

Why don't places like Lexington, Kentucky and Syracuse, New York have guys like Mushnick?  He would have been sent packing in any of these college towns.

Any coach coming to coach NY's only prominent college hoops program has to come here knowing that they are a target of a local press that sees right through them.  Lavin is no different from any of them.  Mushnick failed miserably in not pointing out that the same BS goes on in all these football and hoops programs.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 11:44:58 PM by Tiznow »

Moose

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Re: Replacement for Lavin
« Reply #109 on: November 22, 2014, 11:59:16 PM »
Phil Mushnick throwing another log on the fire

http://nypost.com/2014/11/22/why-must-steve-lavin-recruit-the-sketchiest-characters/

Of course he brings up black uniforms.......
Remember who broke the Slice news

Re: Replacement for Lavin
« Reply #110 on: November 23, 2014, 01:50:33 AM »
Phil Mushnick throwing another log on the fire

http://nypost.com/2014/11/22/why-must-steve-lavin-recruit-the-sketchiest-characters/

Why don't places like Lexington, Kentucky and Syracuse, New York have guys like Mushnick?  He would have been sent packing in any of these college towns.

Any coach coming to coach NY's only prominent college hoops program has to come here knowing that they are a target of a local press that sees right through them.  Lavin is no different from any of them.  Mushnick failed miserably in not pointing out that the same BS goes on in all these football and hoops programs.
First time you have read him? He kills everybody all the time. He is a critic it is what he does. Truth hurts? Emperor has no clothes?

Re: Replacement for Lavin
« Reply #111 on: November 23, 2014, 03:12:26 AM »
Mushnick is the worst kind of human being.

Tiznow

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Re: Replacement for Lavin
« Reply #112 on: November 23, 2014, 01:05:19 PM »
Phil Mushnick throwing another log on the fire

http://nypost.com/2014/11/22/why-must-steve-lavin-recruit-the-sketchiest-characters/

Why don't places like Lexington, Kentucky and Syracuse, New York have guys like Mushnick?  He would have been sent packing in any of these college towns.

Any coach coming to coach NY's only prominent college hoops program has to come here knowing that they are a target of a local press that sees right through them.  Lavin is no different from any of them.  Mushnick failed miserably in not pointing out that the same BS goes on in all these football and hoops programs.
First time you have read him? He kills everybody all the time. He is a critic it is what he does. Truth hurts? Emperor has no clothes?

It was not the first time.  Not even close.  We all love Mushnick when he blasts Francesa.  He should stick to what he does well - sports media coverage.

He should know that everyone coaching this sport at this level has things to hide.  Lavin is doing what they all do to reach the top in this sport.  He's recruiting kids that are high caliber players and very questionable students.  He was far from the only program recruiting these ones.  The kids he lost where questionable students too.  One is on Cuse and no one up there on down here will question it.  In NYC you don't get away with the BS that BSC schools hide from the public.  Are you naïve enough to think UConn, Kentucky and Cuse players are students?  You don't know that their local press is afraid to go after them on anything? 

As for this piece. it was lazy to lump together Adonis with the WCC issue as Mushnick did when he said they were "ruled" ineligible.  I would like to see more in the press on the Adonis issue.  As far as I know, we have an anonymous third party call the school and the school reports the situation to the NCAA.  The school now sits the kid while they wait for a ruling.    Is that the case?  I am not even sure since the local beat reporters have written so little about it.  Mushnick probably wrote this article after a ten minute conversation with local beat reporter who covers the team.  Where is that beat reporter on the Adonis story?

Foad

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Re: Replacement for Lavin
« Reply #113 on: November 23, 2014, 01:32:24 PM »
Lavin is doing what they all do to reach the top in this sport.

Except winning games obviously.

Poison

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Re: Replacement for Lavin
« Reply #114 on: November 23, 2014, 01:58:35 PM »
Phil Mushnick throwing another log on the fire

http://nypost.com/2014/11/22/why-must-steve-lavin-recruit-the-sketchiest-characters/

Why don't places like Lexington, Kentucky and Syracuse, New York have guys like Mushnick?  He would have been sent packing in any of these college towns.

Any coach coming to coach NY's only prominent college hoops program has to come here knowing that they are a target of a local press that sees right through them.  Lavin is no different from any of them.  Mushnick failed miserably in not pointing out that the same BS goes on in all these football and hoops programs.
First time you have read him? He kills everybody all the time. He is a critic it is what he does. Truth hurts? Emperor has no clothes?

It was not the first time.  Not even close.  We all love Mushnick when he blasts Francesa.  He should stick to what he does well - sports media coverage.

He should know that everyone coaching this sport at this level has things to hide.  Lavin is doing what they all do to reach the top in this sport.  He's recruiting kids that are high caliber players and very questionable students.  He was far from the only program recruiting these ones.  The kids he lost where questionable students too.  One is on Cuse and no one up there on down here will question it.  In NYC you don't get away with the BS that BSC schools hide from the public.  Are you naïve enough to think UConn, Kentucky and Cuse players are students?  You don't know that their local press is afraid to go after them on anything? 

As for this piece. it was lazy to lump together Adonis with the WCC issue as Mushnick did when he said they were "ruled" ineligible.  I would like to see more in the press on the Adonis issue.  As far as I know, we have an anonymous third party call the school and the school reports the situation to the NCAA.  The school now sits the kid while they wait for a ruling.    Is that the case?  I am not even sure since the local beat reporters have written so little about it.  Mushnick probably wrote this article after a ten minute conversation with local beat reporter who covers the team.  Where is that beat reporter on the Adonis story?

Ok. Evil Poison here...

Just like the injuries and failed recruiting and coaching attempts were all Norm's fault, Lavin's recruiting and coaching issues are his to own as well. What good is it if Lavin only has a great player for one or two seasons, if we can't win in that structure? It's certainly not one individual player's fault like Harkless and Sampson, but if you combine their departures w Norvelle Pelle, Amir Garrett, Jakarr Sampson, Orlando Sanchez, Marco Bourgault, Keith Thomas and Adonis Delarosa w inconsistent coaching and lousy in-game strategy you have a point if you are unhappy with the body of work.

I don't care why they didn't qualify. I don't care why Nurideen Lindsay quit the team after several games. I don't care why Lavin ignored the 14-15 recruiting class until it came down to several less than ideal options.

If the answer isn't he was sick, which was more than acceptable for the 11-12 season, I don't want to hear it. It's just another excuse. Mushnick is calling Lavin out fairly. He's bringing up several issues that could have been avoided. At the end of the day, it comes done to improvement and continuity. We haven't seen either yet. Just a lot of hype. As fans, the end result is what we are left with, and I'm sick of filling out brackets without our name in on them.

Lavin shouldn't be extended at this time. I can understand that hurts recruiting, but St.John's should be thinking about the program before they think about one season - which looks like it will require a miracle in terms of recruiting and kids staying to even have a chance to be competitive.

#Unfinished Business - It applies to the players, and it applies to the coach and his staff. Lavin talked to the season ticket holders about how close we were to winning some of the games we lost. Some of that is on Lavin directly. Out of a TO, he chose to have guy that we never use to inbound a ball, inbound a ball under the oopposing's basket. Why? What the hell was he thinking? Fair is fair. This year, Lavin will be judged by everyone. No more coasting.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 02:01:45 PM by Poison »

Tiznow

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Re: Replacement for Lavin
« Reply #115 on: November 23, 2014, 02:03:27 PM »
Lavin is doing what they all do to reach the top in this sport.

Except winning games obviously.

Agreed. Only the best ones win enough the reach the top.  Unfortunately for us, we keep whiffing on finding one.

Tiznow

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Re: Replacement for Lavin
« Reply #116 on: November 23, 2014, 02:06:44 PM »
Phil Mushnick throwing another log on the fire

http://nypost.com/2014/11/22/why-must-steve-lavin-recruit-the-sketchiest-characters/

Why don't places like Lexington, Kentucky and Syracuse, New York have guys like Mushnick?  He would have been sent packing in any of these college towns.

Any coach coming to coach NY's only prominent college hoops program has to come here knowing that they are a target of a local press that sees right through them.  Lavin is no different from any of them.  Mushnick failed miserably in not pointing out that the same BS goes on in all these football and hoops programs.
First time you have read him? He kills everybody all the time. He is a critic it is what he does. Truth hurts? Emperor has no clothes?

It was not the first time.  Not even close.  We all love Mushnick when he blasts Francesa.  He should stick to what he does well - sports media coverage.

He should know that everyone coaching this sport at this level has things to hide.  Lavin is doing what they all do to reach the top in this sport.  He's recruiting kids that are high caliber players and very questionable students.  He was far from the only program recruiting these ones.  The kids he lost where questionable students too.  One is on Cuse and no one up there on down here will question it.  In NYC you don't get away with the BS that BSC schools hide from the public.  Are you naïve enough to think UConn, Kentucky and Cuse players are students?  You don't know that their local press is afraid to go after them on anything? 

As for this piece. it was lazy to lump together Adonis with the WCC issue as Mushnick did when he said they were "ruled" ineligible.  I would like to see more in the press on the Adonis issue.  As far as I know, we have an anonymous third party call the school and the school reports the situation to the NCAA.  The school now sits the kid while they wait for a ruling.    Is that the case?  I am not even sure since the local beat reporters have written so little about it.  Mushnick probably wrote this article after a ten minute conversation with local beat reporter who covers the team.  Where is that beat reporter on the Adonis story?

Ok. Evil Poison here...

Just like the injuries and failed recruiting and coaching attempts were all Norm's fault, Lavin's recruiting and coaching issues are his to own as well. What good is it if Lavin only has a great player for one or two seasons, if we can't win in that structure? It's certainly not one individual player's fault like Harkless and Sampson, but if you combine their departures w Norvelle Pelle, Amir Garrett, Jakarr Sampson, Orlando Sanchez, Marco Bourgault, Keith Thomas and Adonis Delarosa w inconsistent coaching and lousy in-game strategy you have a point if you are unhappy with the body of work.

I don't care why they didn't qualify. I don't care why Nurideen Lindsay quit the team after several games. I don't care why Lavin ignored the 14-15 recruiting class until it came down to several less than ideal options.

If the answer isn't he was sick, which was more than acceptable for the 11-12 season, I don't want to hear it. It's just another excuse. Mushnick is calling Lavin out fairly. He's bringing up several issues that could have been avoided. At the end of the day, it comes done to improvement and continuity. We haven't seen either yet. Just a lot of hype. As fans, the end result is what we are left with, and I'm sick of filling out brackets without our name in on them.

Lavin shouldn't be extended at this time. I can understand that hurts recruiting, but St.John's should be thinking about the program before they think about one season - which looks like it will require a miracle in terms of recruiting and kids staying to even have a chance to be competitive.

#Unfinished Business - It applies to the players, and it applies to the coach and his staff. Lavin talked to the season ticket holders about how close we were to winning some of the games we lost. Some of that is on Lavin directly. Out of a TO, he chose to have guy that we never use to inbound a ball, inbound a ball under the oopposing's basket. Why? What the hell was he thinking? Fair is fair. This year, Lavin will be judged by everyone. No more coasting.

Mushnick is not being fair by not calling out the other programs.  Norm did seem to play by the Mushnick rules and as result we never even sniffed a top 50 recruit.

Foad

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Re: Replacement for Lavin
« Reply #117 on: November 23, 2014, 02:54:54 PM »
Mushnick is not being fair by not calling out the other programs. 

Chinese restaurants aren't fair because they don't serve pizza.

Mushnick was writing an article about Steve Lavin. It's fair to write articles about Steve Lavin. It's also fair that not every article about Steve Lavin's failings needs to mention everyone else's failings.

Every time Lavin mentions his prostate he doesn't mention that Boeheim and Calhoun also had prostate cancer. is that fair? Calhoun has had more tumors than most lab rats. 

Re: Replacement for Lavin
« Reply #118 on: November 23, 2014, 03:14:38 PM »
I agree with many of Marillac 's points.

Particularly these:

1. Our fans suck.   This is not debatable.

2. STJ fans will cry and complain about whoever is the next coach or the one after that. 


Disclaimer: this is not a Lavin endorsement. 

He is here this year.   We have talent on this team. I hope they all do well.

+1

Re: Replacement for Lavin
« Reply #119 on: November 23, 2014, 03:23:06 PM »
How about we as fans just root for the current staff and players?  We can all talk about next year, but this year we have 3 possible NBA players on the team (Harrison, Jordan, Obekpa).  I know the team is weak upfront and I know that Lavin did an awful job of recruiting in 2014.  But there's no way to fix that now, so how about we just try enjoying this season for a change?  At the end of the year, the St. John's administrators will have to make a decision on him.  Either he's going to be extended or he won't be coaching the team in 2015-'16.  That's the bottom line.

Did I expect better results last year?  Of course I did.  I was very disappointed with how they played at times.  But the fact of the matter is the program has made improvement under his watch.  Is it good enough for the 50 or so fans that are still left in the seats?  No, of course not.  But he's a much better coach than Norm Roberts so I guess from that standpoint it's a win.  All I'm saying is it's so tiresome to be talking about the same things over and over again.  We are all fans for a reason and honestly just looking at the downside of the situation is a terrible way of thinking about it.  Let's just enjoy the current players and see how it all plays out.  Team has some good games coming up against Minnesota and Georgia/Gonzaga.  Hopefully they are able to take 1 or if we're really lucky 2.