Replacement for Lavin

I hope Lavin does well and hope he earns an extension for 2 reasons . First I want to win. Second I am afraid of what happens if we don't win this year. We need recuits. I agree he isn't a good game coach but he recruits very well.  I also agree what marralic said about the big east.
Think obekpa and Jordan have potential. Next year they should be starting for us. I don't watch the NBA, for those that do could either make the Knicks ( who suck) and if they made the team would they contribute?
As far as our fans, we are St. John's. Not NY state. Our school is diverse. Our fanbase is not.  Most of the students don't know follow basketball . I think we have good fans . Going to games isn't cheap. No one wants to see a loser. If We win they will come. If we lose people are staying home .

Quote from: desco80 on November 21, 2014, 06:56:40 AM

Quote from: boo3 on November 20, 2014, 08:03:53 PM

I agree with many of Marillac 's points.

Particularly these:

1. Our fans suck.   This is not debatable.

2. STJ fans will cry and complain about whoever is the next coach or the one after that. 


Disclaimer: this is not a Lavin endorsement. 

He is here this year.   We have talent on this team. I hope they all do well.

Boo, I have an actual question for you, this isn't rhetorical: name a program that has struggled as much as us the last 20 years that has "good" fans

But we start the year off like this.  We are 3-0.  We haven't lost.  We are making predictions that we will lose and bashing the coach (further) on them.  Lavin's first season we went from nothing to a top 20 team.

Here's my stance....if Lavin leaves, we are in trouble.  He took this job when the Big East was intact and it's not the same after losing Syracuse, Uconn, Louisville, Pitt, and ND.  We will also surely lose Jordan and Obekpa--I'm not convinced either will leave otherwise.

We just aren't the program we used to be. This isn't the conference we used to be in.  When you got a guy like Lavin or Paul Hewitt that can recruit well, you have a chance every couple of years to be special.  You will also have to accept some disappointing years.

Our fans are awful.  It takes a few minutes to understand the tone of any sports message board.  If I was a coach, parent, or a recruit I'd never consider this place after reading our message boards.

Sure, let's fire our fifth coach in 20 years (think about that).  I'm sure there will be guys lining up to coach in a second rate conference  for a school with no loyalty or passion that will eventually call for their head. 

A few comments.  Agreed, Our fan are awful.  At The Providence/Albany game last week P had a nearly full house of loud dedicated fans.  What did SJU draw in the equivalent NJIT game?    As for a new coach....SJU has had a remarkable run of bad luck with coaches.  Looking back, Mahoney should have been given more time, he had the NY connections and could recruit.  Jarvis looked OK on paper but ruined the NY connections by refusing to get close to NY area hoops people.  Fran should have been great but.....apparently he was a whackjob.  Roberts was mediocre but at least he ran a clean program and actually developed a good team for Lavin to take credit for.  I fully supported Lavin who came in with the reputation as a great recruiter and a mediocre (at best) bench coach.   He has been a good, not great recruiter, but apparently is weak in the qualifying of his recruits.  It has been such a regular occurrence that one must believe his recruit vetting process is pitiful.  Does he just cross his finger when recruiting an academically marginal player?   If he cant get to the NCAA with this team, a team which has decent talent and should get there, he should be fired.  SJU has great tradition, the Garden and NYC.  The last 20 years have been pitiful but this program can and should rise again. 

Quote from: TONYD3 on November 21, 2014, 04:45:50 PM

I hope Lavin does well and hope he earns an extension for 2 reasons . First I want to win. Second I am afraid of what happens if we don't win this year. We need recuits. I agree he isn't a good game coach but he recruits very well.  I also agree what marralic said about the big east.
Think obekpa and Jordan have potential. Next year they should be starting for us. I don't watch the NBA, for those that do could either make the Knicks ( who suck) and if they made the team would they contribute?
As far as our fans, we are St. John's. Not NY state. Our school is diverse. Our fanbase is not.  Most of the students don't know follow basketball . I think we have good fans . Going to games isn't cheap. No one wants to see a loser. If We win they will come. If we lose people are staying home .

St.John's kids don't care about St.John's. That's not a new trend. Jordan and Obekpa want to get the hell out of there as fast as possible. Once they do, Lavin is finished.

Quote from: Poison on November 21, 2014, 05:22:44 PM

Quote from: TONYD3 on November 21, 2014, 04:45:50 PM

I hope Lavin does well and hope he earns an extension for 2 reasons . First I want to win. Second I am afraid of what happens if we don't win this year. We need recuits. I agree he isn't a good game coach but he recruits very well.  I also agree what marralic said about the big east.
Think obekpa and Jordan have potential. Next year they should be starting for us. I don't watch the NBA, for those that do could either make the Knicks ( who suck) and if they made the team would they contribute?
As far as our fans, we are St. John's. Not NY state. Our school is diverse. Our fanbase is not.  Most of the students don't know follow basketball . I think we have good fans . Going to games isn't cheap. No one wants to see a loser. If We win they will come. If we lose people are staying home .

St.John's kids don't care about St.John's. That's not a new trend. Jordan and Obekpa want to get the hell out of there as fast as possible. Once they do, Lavin is finished.

This is the bigger issue.

Quote from: Marillac on November 21, 2014, 02:46:58 PM

Quote from: desco80 on November 21, 2014, 06:56:40 AM

Quote from: boo3 on November 20, 2014, 08:03:53 PM

I agree with many of Marillac 's points.

Particularly these:

1. Our fans suck.   This is not debatable.

2. STJ fans will cry and complain about whoever is the next coach or the one after that. 


Disclaimer: this is not a Lavin endorsement. 

He is here this year.   We have talent on this team. I hope they all do well.

Boo, I have an actual question for you, this isn't rhetorical: name a program that has struggled as much as us the last 20 years that has "good" fans

But we start the year off like this.  We are 3-0.  We haven't lost.  We are making predictions that we will lose and bashing the coach (further) on them.  Lavin's first season we went from nothing to a top 20 team.

Here's my stance....if Lavin leaves, we are in trouble.  He took this job when the Big East was intact and it's not the same after losing Syracuse, Uconn, Louisville, Pitt, and ND.  We will also surely lose Jordan and Obekpa--I'm not convinced either will leave otherwise.

We just aren't the program we used to be. This isn't the conference we used to be in.  When you got a guy like Lavin or Paul Hewitt that can recruit well, you have a chance every couple of years to be special.  You will also have to accept some disappointing years.

Our fans are awful.  It takes a few minutes to understand the tone of any sports message board.  If I was a coach, parent, or a recruit I'd never consider this place after reading our message boards.

Sure, let's fire our fifth coach in 20 years (think about that).  I'm sure there will be guys lining up to coach in a second rate conference  for a school with no loyalty or passion that will eventually call for their head. 

What recruiting Marillac?   I'm looking at 2 empty classes in a row.   
If he was still landing talent like his first and second classes then you might be able to convince me that with the right assistant it was worth keeping Lavin.
But he's not recruiting at that level anymore.   

Also, if they beat some real teams next week it will be a lot more positive around the message board.   

So if Lavin makes a tournament wins a game, recruits a solid class and after 5yrs he took SJU to two NCAA tournaments 2 NIT tournaments and has had 3 straight winning seasons, he still needs to be let go without a solid replacement?

These stats do not deserve a 2-3yr extension?

That doesn't seem to make much sense either.

So if Lavin makes a tournament wins a game, recruits a solid class and after 5yrs he took SJU to two NCAA tournaments 2 NIT tournaments and has had 3 straight winning seasons, he still needs to be let go without a solid replacement?

These stats do not deserve a 2-3yr extension?

That doesn't seem to make much sense either.

Quote from: Marillac on November 21, 2014, 02:46:58 PM

Quote from: desco80 on November 21, 2014, 06:56:40 AM

Quote from: boo3 on November 20, 2014, 08:03:53 PM

I agree with many of Marillac 's points.

Particularly these:

1. Our fans suck.   This is not debatable.

2. STJ fans will cry and complain about whoever is the next coach or the one after that. 


Disclaimer: this is not a Lavin endorsement. 

He is here this year.   We have talent on this team. I hope they all do well.

Boo, I have an actual question for you, this isn't rhetorical: name a program that has struggled as much as us the last 20 years that has "good" fans

But we start the year off like this.  We are 3-0.  We haven't lost.  We are making predictions that we will lose and bashing the coach (further) on them.  Lavin's first season we went from nothing to a top 20 team.

Here's my stance....if Lavin leaves, we are in trouble.  He took this job when the Big East was intact and it's not the same after losing Syracuse, Uconn, Louisville, Pitt, and ND.  We will also surely lose Jordan and Obekpa--I'm not convinced either will leave otherwise.

We just aren't the program we used to be. This isn't the conference we used to be in.  When you got a guy like Lavin or Paul Hewitt that can recruit well, you have a chance every couple of years to be special.  You will also have to accept some disappointing years.

Our fans are awful.  It takes a few minutes to understand the tone of any sports message board.  If I was a coach, parent, or a recruit I'd never consider this place after reading our message boards.

Sure, let's fire our fifth coach in 20 years (think about that).  I'm sure there will be guys lining up to coach in a second rate conference  for a school with no loyalty or passion that will eventually call for their head. 

Paul Hewitt is a bad, bad example.  Guy is stinking it up at George Mason.

Ok, lets go with your theory that recruiting is partially in decline because of the status of the league.  Do you think Steve Lavin is a good enough coach to take unheralded, less athletic kids and OVERachieve with them?  He has underachieved with much better recruits, so what makes you think he can overachieve with 2 and 3-star kids? 

Again, if this is a coach like Buzz Williams or the old Ben Howland from Pitt or even Jamie Dixon who HAS shown they can overachieve with the less-heralded kids, then I would buy into that.  But Lavin has shown mediocrity with these higher rated kids, so I have no reason to believe he would be better with the less heralded kids.

So if Lavin makes a tournament wins a game, recruits a solid class and after 5yrs he took SJU to two NCAA tournaments 2 NIT tournaments and has had 3 straight winning seasons, he still needs to be let go without a solid replacement?

These stats do not deserve a 2-3yr extension?

That doesn't seem to make much sense either.

Quote from: nudginator59 on November 21, 2014, 08:35:53 PM

So if Lavin makes a tournament wins a game, recruits a solid class and after 5yrs he took SJU to two NCAA tournaments 2 NIT tournaments and has had 3 straight winning seasons, he still needs to be let go without a solid replacement?

These stats do not deserve a 2-3yr extension?

That doesn't seem to make much sense either.

1) that's a lot of "ifs", but
2) if all that did occur it would cause many of us to reassess, and maybe he would deserve an extension

And 3) why do you presume it would be with out a solid replacement?  I can think of at least 5 good candidates who are obtainable.

Quote from: desco80 on November 21, 2014, 09:07:32 PM

Quote from: nudginator59 on November 21, 2014, 08:35:53 PM

So if Lavin makes a tournament wins a game, recruits a solid class and after 5yrs he took SJU to two NCAA tournaments 2 NIT tournaments and has had 3 straight winning seasons, he still needs to be let go without a solid replacement?

These stats do not deserve a 2-3yr extension?

That doesn't seem to make much sense either.

Yeah I'm sick of the same ole bs, a new coach every 5, 6 years too.
But if Jordan and Obekpa leave with the seniors, we'll be the freaking youngest team in the country in Lavins 6th year, do you really want to start all over with Lavin?   That would be on him no?

So why not start over with a new coach, we're probably starting over anyway, with or without him.

1) that's a lot of "ifs", but
2) if all that did occur it would cause many of us to reassess, and maybe he would deserve an extension

And 3) why do you presume it would be with out a solid replacement?  I can think of at least 5 good candidates who are obtainable.

1. I agree that these ifs should be certains by now and there not. All these ifs are defiantly doable...even cuse looks beatable by now.
2. shouldn't the jury still be out on Lavin and not decided? I can even understand pessimism, but fire the guy after one season that really missed expectations. He even said that last year was supposed to be the big year...last year was a disappointment but this fan base has a pretty tight leash on a program that has been mediocre.
3. Everyone knew that Roberts would be gone after his last year (barring a miracle) and the program still got caught with its pants down. Lavin helped save some embarrassment by showing legitimate interest in the program while Hewitt and  Greenberg publicly turned SJU down. What big name coaches want to coach here? We would be gambling on another mid major up and comming coach which has resulted in mix results...Fran was truingn to find a bigger program and Jarvis was...well jarvis. Would trust Maisollo to stay with SJU in the long haul? SJU has potential but it defiantly needs a makeover queer eye style if Lavin becomes the 4th consecutive coach to fail to make SJU a NCAA regular again...

I have faith in this new President and having somebody like Roeple who has the money and cares for the program. These are big pluses but it would be an extremely tall order to find a new coach new recruits in a very short time period. I am tired of being in constantly rebuilding mode with coaches that are coming and going.

Agreed, Our fan are awful.  At The Providence/Albany game last week P had a nearly full house of loud dedicated fans.  What did SJU draw in the equivalent NJIT game? 

Everyone keeps saying there is a great coach for SJUBB that is waiting to be found...After what would be 5 coaches, I just don't believe in "well the next guy will be better" theory anymore.  If they are planning to move on from Lavin I hope they are building a plan now...

If he blows this year he is probably gone and there is another sucky major rebuilding program in the new BE...How does this look good for the school and the conference?

This is why that I hope he does well on all fronts because he is a personality that the school and the BE needs. The given that we are a great program again.

I don't think Hewitt is a bad example.  He was hit or miss at Ga Tech.  He brought them to a national title game.  What fan wouldn't sign up for that in exchange for four bad seasons and another decent one?  Hewitt also brought Siena to a tournament.

From the beginning I have felt that we should not fire (or possibly extend) Lavin until his first full recruiting class has finished. 
The guy can spot and sign talent.  Harkless and Sampson are in the NBA.  Polee is on multiple mock drafts for2015.  Obekpa is on a mock draft now.  Jordan is a first rounder in his own mind and has a good shot to be drafted in 2016.  FIVE out of the seven guys in the rotation were ranked between 26-69 of the RSCI when they graduated. 

Lavin stepped up his game and sold out on Jordan in 2013...landed him.  He tried to do the same last year and lost Whitehead at the last minute because he took the high ground.  This year he lost (presumably) fair and square to the best program in the country for the best guard in the country.  He swung for the fences and hit a 400 foot out.  I'll take that.  It sucks, but I'll take it.   We are still finalists for Sampson and Diallo.  I think we get Diallo if Lavin stays.

I think the difference between myself and other posters is the original expectation when the 2011 class was signed.  Go back to that prediction thread.  I predicted those freshmen would win 13 games (no faith in freshmen). Some guys were talking 20+ right out of the gate. I thought last year wold be the year we win 23-25 and maybe win a game or two in the tournament.  That was the first season I was disappointed....but, hey, 20 wins with a freshman pg isn't awful ether.

This was the year I was expecting to reasonably compete for an Elite 8 with a stretch goal of a little better (gotta dream, right?).  That's not happening...clearly.  But if they can become a tenacious defensive team with some more time with Whitesell, they can definitely dance and win a game maybe two with favorable matchups.  The outside shooting will likely be the strongest in some time, our FT shooting looks very good early on, and it looks like we will be living at the line the way Harrison and Jordan draw contact.  That is basketball...get to the rim...draw contact...inside out looks.  We could be a top three FT shooting team in the Big East this year if the new Obekpa is not a mirage. 

The irony is that we lost three big men that floated on the perimeter for jump shots and we are now feeding the ball to the post into last season's PG, SG, and SF.  And they all look great in there.

Quote from: Moose on November 21, 2014, 07:31:20 PM

Quote from: Poison on November 21, 2014, 05:22:44 PM

Quote from: TONYD3 on November 21, 2014, 04:45:50 PM

I hope Lavin does well and hope he earns an extension for 2 reasons . First I want to win. Second I am afraid of what happens if we don't win this year. We need recuits. I agree he isn't a good game coach but he recruits very well.  I also agree what marralic said about the big east.
Think obekpa and Jordan have potential. Next year they should be starting for us. I don't watch the NBA, for those that do could either make the Knicks ( who suck) and if they made the team would they contribute?
As far as our fans, we are St. John's. Not NY state. Our school is diverse. Our fanbase is not.  Most of the students don't know follow basketball . I think we have good fans . Going to games isn't cheap. No one wants to see a loser. If We win they will come. If we lose people are staying home .

St.John's kids don't care about St.John's. That's not a new trend. Jordan and Obekpa want to get the hell out of there as fast as possible. Once they do, Lavin is finished.

This is the bigger issue.

Do you think Kentucky kids care about Kentucky, or are they looking for the best way to get into the NBA? It would be interesting to see if the NBA got rid of the one and done rule or if they make a rule in which you go to school  your stuck there for at least 2yrs. Or you can go in right out of HS.

There was no D league back in the day so now there is a safety net.