Chicken/Egg -- Recruits/Extension

Quote from: simplyred on December 07, 2014, 10:30:04 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on December 07, 2014, 10:26:01 PM

Quote from: simplyred on December 07, 2014, 10:13:33 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on December 07, 2014, 10:09:55 PM

Do recruits come to play for a coach or a school?

99% of the time it is the coach. If it was the school, so many kids wouldn't ask out of their commitment when there is a coaching change. They usually make a choice based on relationship and comfort with coaching staff, style of play, and some idea how they will fit into the offense. When a new coach comes in, all that is out the window.

Say for example a coach lands some nice recruits his first year, but not so much since? The recruits don't trust the staff and style of play?

Not sure. But lack of a contract doesn't help.

Wins = contract

agree

Quote from: simplyred on December 07, 2014, 10:30:04 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on December 07, 2014, 10:26:01 PM

Quote from: simplyred on December 07, 2014, 10:13:33 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on December 07, 2014, 10:09:55 PM

Do recruits come to play for a coach or a school?

99% of the time it is the coach. If it was the school, so many kids wouldn't ask out of their commitment when there is a coaching change. They usually make a choice based on relationship and comfort with coaching staff, style of play, and some idea how they will fit into the offense. When a new coach comes in, all that is out the window.

Say for example a coach lands some nice recruits his first year, but not so much since? The recruits don't trust the staff and style of play?

Not sure. But lack of a contract doesn't help.

Wins = contract

Not so sure about that. What if we kick ass this year, but for some reason the good recruits don't come. With co and rj possibly leaving, we'll need some pretty good recruits to replace them too.
Yeah in a normal year where we'd have some good recruits for next year then wins = contract.

I just don't want to be good once every 4 year, then have to start all over again. Would anyone on this board accept that?

If we go 11-1, maybe 14-4 in conference play, that's 25-5. Win the B.E., tourny and make the elite 8, you'd expect top recruits to open their eyes and say wow lavin and sju took care of business. Maybe we should consider them.
Then we'll be rolling.

Do recruits come to play for a coach or a school?

It's a valid question. In my experience at this level it is the coach. I think there are only a handful of schools that impact the player's decision in addition to the coach. Some high academic (Ivy, Patriot, some D-III schools) and a very small percentage of schools with incredible prestige (UNC, Duke, Notre Dame, Kentucky).

Quote from: simplyred on December 07, 2014, 10:30:04 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on December 07, 2014, 10:26:01 PM

Quote from: simplyred on December 07, 2014, 10:13:33 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on December 07, 2014, 10:09:55 PM

Do recruits come to play for a coach or a school?

99% of the time it is the coach. If it was the school, so many kids wouldn't ask out of their commitment when there is a coaching change. They usually make a choice based on relationship and comfort with coaching staff, style of play, and some idea how they will fit into the offense. When a new coach comes in, all that is out the window.

Say for example a coach lands some nice recruits his first year, but not so much since? The recruits don't trust the staff and style of play?

Not sure. But lack of a contract doesn't help.

Wins = contract

I think wins are overrated. I think conference placement and NCAA appearances/record matter so much more. 

Quote from: Marco Baldi on December 07, 2014, 10:34:01 PM

Quote from: simplyred on December 07, 2014, 10:30:04 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on December 07, 2014, 10:26:01 PM

Quote from: simplyred on December 07, 2014, 10:13:33 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on December 07, 2014, 10:09:55 PM

Do recruits come to play for a coach or a school?

99% of the time it is the coach. If it was the school, so many kids wouldn't ask out of their commitment when there is a coaching change. They usually make a choice based on relationship and comfort with coaching staff, style of play, and some idea how they will fit into the offense. When a new coach comes in, all that is out the window.

Say for example a coach lands some nice recruits his first year, but not so much since? The recruits don't trust the staff and style of play?

Not sure. But lack of a contract doesn't help.

Wins = contract

I think wins are overrated. I think conference placement and NCAA appearances/record matter so much more.

NCAA appearances/ record is exactly what I meant by wins. That's the grading stick

Quote from: Dave on December 07, 2014, 11:55:06 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on December 07, 2014, 10:34:01 PM

Quote from: simplyred on December 07, 2014, 10:30:04 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on December 07, 2014, 10:26:01 PM

Quote from: simplyred on December 07, 2014, 10:13:33 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on December 07, 2014, 10:09:55 PM

Do recruits come to play for a coach or a school?

99% of the time it is the coach. If it was the school, so many kids wouldn't ask out of their commitment when there is a coaching change. They usually make a choice based on relationship and comfort with coaching staff, style of play, and some idea how they will fit into the offense. When a new coach comes in, all that is out the window.

Say for example a coach lands some nice recruits his first year, but not so much since? The recruits don't trust the staff and style of play?

Not sure. But lack of a contract doesn't help.

Wins = contract

I think wins are overrated. I think conference placement and NCAA appearances/record matter so much more.

NCAA appearances/ record is exactly what I meant by wins. That's the grading stick

Say what you mean and mean what you say. 

Coaches have the most impact with a school helping out with the decision. Coaches have an impact because why would kids go to done of these states schools that are in the middle of nowhere...Why would a kid purposely go to Suracuse with there brutal winters? If the player feels that the coach can take them to the next level they will go there.
Maybe Jarvis was just making an excuse for himself but he did gripe about the training facilities of SJU.  When you enter some of these state schools and see what they have to offer it is pretty amazing the amenities they have. That could be a tie breaker for students.
What saves SJU IMO is being a basketball school that plays at MSG. We can make up for some of our shortfalls by saying we play at the Garden. It may not mean too much for the local kids but across the country it has to mean somrthing.
SJU needs a stable coach that wins consistently. If This team can continue the track that it is on they will have a 20win season for the second season in a and a NCAA birth. That is defiantly building towards something...Obviously Lavin needs to recruit the hell out of the 15 class ...

Can somebody explain to me how having a lame duck coach is good for a program? I think if Lavin starts the BE season strong he will get an extension, of he struggles I think that is when a change will and should happen.

Can somebody explain to me how having a lame duck coach is good for a program? I think if Lavin starts the BE season strong he will get an extension, of he struggles I think that is when a change will and should happen.

There is no chance Lavin is ousted mid season no matter what happens

Can somebody explain to me how having a lame duck coach is good for a program? I think if Lavin starts the BE season strong he will get an extension, of he struggles I think that is when a change will and should happen.

nudg, how about Lavin first atleast gets a few verbals some good recruits first so we see that he has a few ballers ready to commit if we offer him an extension. 
If we get into the ncaa, make aliitle noise in it, and he has a few ballers ready to commit if we give him an extension.
Then I'd say ok give then man his extension.

Would you be ok with that?  If for some reason SJU doesn't offer an extension after that then the recruits could just recommit.
I just want him to earn an extension, not just give him one so he's not a lame duck coach.

Quote from: nudginator59 on December 08, 2014, 12:49:51 AM

Can somebody explain to me how having a lame duck coach is good for a program? I think if Lavin starts the BE season strong he will get an extension, of he struggles I think that is when a change will and should happen.

nudg, how about Lavin first atleast gets a few verbals some good recruits first so we see that he has a few ballers ready to commit if we offer him an extension. If we get into the ncaa, make aliitle noise in it, and he has a few ballers ready to commit if we give him an extension. Then I'd say ok give then man his extension. Would you be ok with that? If for some reason SJU doesn't offer an extension after that then the recruits could just recommit. I just want him to earn an extension, not just give him one so he's not a lame duck coach.

When a kid gives a verbal, other schools back off and move on to other recruits.  Why would a kid give a verbal and potentially lose a slot at another school in hopes that this coach will get his extension.  Only elite kids can expect spots to be held for them.  Not the kid who is gambling on a coach being extended.

Basically we are setting him up to fail without an extension. If we are 10-1 going into Seton Hall and possibly a top 15 team, he's gotta be given an extension. 

Basically we are setting him up to fail without an extension. If we are 10-1 going into Seton Hall and possibly a top 15 team, he's gotta be given an extension.

Are you ok with having to wait 4 years to be good again?  I said it 4 years ago when the massive 9 man class turned into 6 and started whittling away.  We were setting ourselves up to be good every 4 years.  I'd like someone to build a team the right way and balance it with 4 year players and stability.
I hope to hell this team wins big for these kids.  But honestly I still walk away IMO.

Basically we are setting him up to fail without an extension. If we are 10-1 going into Seton Hall and possibly a top 15 team, he's gotta be given an extension.

I honestly don't know that it makes much of a difference at this point 212.   The recruits left to sign for next year are extremely limited, whether he has an extension or not.
The recruiting and the extension needed to be done last spring or over the summer when the impact recruits were making decisions.  

Quote from: redstorm212 on December 08, 2014, 05:51:16 AM

Basically we are setting him up to fail without an extension. If we are 10-1 going into Seton Hall and possibly a top 15 team, he's gotta be given an extension.

Are you ok with having to wait 4 years to be good again? I said it 4 years ago when the massive 9 man class turned into 6 and started whittling away. We were setting ourselves up to be good every 4 years. I'd like someone to build a team the right way and balance it with 4 year players and stability. I hope to hell this team wins big for these kids. But honestly I still walk away IMO.

It will never be as bad as the 9 seniors graduating and leaving only Malik Stith. I also think one of Jordan/Obekpa will be here next year. Do I think we'll make the tourney next year? No. But if we are 10-1 ranked top 15 in the country, you are crazy to not extend that coach. Especially when you are St. John's.
And to Desco, I think even at this point it is a huge factor. We still have Sampson considering us. And who would commit to a coach when their own school isn't committed to him?

Quote from: nudginator59 on December 08, 2014, 12:49:51 AM

Can somebody explain to me how having a lame duck coach is good for a program? I think if Lavin starts the BE season strong he will get an extension, of he struggles I think that is when a change will and should happen.

nudg, how about Lavin first atleast gets a few verbals some good recruits first so we see that he has a few ballers ready to commit if we offer him an extension. 
If we get into the ncaa, make aliitle noise in it, and he has a few ballers ready to commit if we give him an extension.
Then I'd say ok give then man his extension.

Would you be ok with that?  If for some reason SJU doesn't offer an extension after that then the recruits could just recommit.
I just want him to earn an extension, not just give him one so he's not a lame duck coach.

I can't see Lavin begging a recruit to just give a verbal so he can get an extension. Not gonna happen.

Extending now is not my preference. Let the season play out & go from there. I know that will not enhance recruiting, but I still prefer to see how we end up this year. I am not going to get caught up in emotions because we beat Syracuse & may be ranked. Making the NCAA Tourney & winning two games is my bar. I respect the opinions of others on this, but I feel that is fair.

Quote from: redstorm212 on December 08, 2014, 05:51:16 AM

Basically we are setting him up to fail without an extension. If we are 10-1 going into Seton Hall and possibly a top 15 team, he's gotta be given an extension.

Are you ok with having to wait 4 years to be good again?  I said it 4 years ago when the massive 9 man class turned into 6 and started whittling away.  We were setting ourselves up to be good every 4 years.  I'd like someone to build a team the right way and balance it with 4 year players and stability.
I hope to hell this team wins big for these kids.  But honestly I still walk away IMO.

Same can be asked of you. Are you okay with getting rid of a coach who's record has improved each year for an unknown? It would take a new coach 3-4 years anyway to become good again.

Lavin is not a great game coach. I don't think he is as bad as most make him out to be though. He does need to find a way to blance the roster better. That will be the only way to substain the winning this fan base wants. IMO that starts with having a bunch of 3-star recruits that will be here for 4 years. Mix in a few 4-5 star recruits and you have something cooking.

Was Chris Monash at every away game last year?

I think it will be hard to get more than verbals until lavin has an extension. Even if it is an extension with a low buy out. Given this schools very poor history of selecting coaches a kid would be crazy to come w lavin only having one more year.  Who's to say we won't go the cheap (norm) route again?

Thus, if the admin is not willing to pay more than they pay lavin for a stud coach, I give him a three year extension with a low buy out if five games into the BE season we are 4-1 or better and assuming we win the rest of our non conf games before then.

If the admin/boosters are willing to fork over the money to go after a stud, best time might be after a very good season so available coaches see how attainable success is at St. John's and the kind of press and attention that comes with it.  And by stud I mean young stud.  I have no illusions that someone like billy Donovan is coming here.