Chicken/Egg -- Recruits/Extension

Was Chris Monash at every away game last year?

Yes

Quote from: Moose on December 08, 2014, 08:46:49 AM

Quote from: redstorm212 on December 08, 2014, 05:51:16 AM

Basically we are setting him up to fail without an extension. If we are 10-1 going into Seton Hall and possibly a top 15 team, he's gotta be given an extension.

Are you ok with having to wait 4 years to be good again? I said it 4 years ago when the massive 9 man class turned into 6 and started whittling away. We were setting ourselves up to be good every 4 years. I'd like someone to build a team the right way and balance it with 4 year players and stability. I hope to hell this team wins big for these kids. But honestly I still walk away IMO.

Same can be asked of you. Are you okay with getting rid of a coach who's record has improved each year for an unknown? It would take a new coach 3-4 years anyway to become good again. Lavin is not a great game coach. I don't think he is as bad as most make him out to be though. He does need to find a way to blance the roster better. That will be the only way to substain the winning this fan base wants. IMO that starts with having a bunch of 3-star recruits that will be here for 4 years. Mix in a few 4-5 star recruits and you have something cooking.

Yes I am prepared to move in a new direction.  I know the team won't be good next year.  I hope we don't lose any unexpected players but I think we all know this day and age especially with SJU its pretty much par for the course.  I would rather build a team the right way instead of throwing crap against a wall and seeing what sticks.  
Next year is pretty close to the first year in terms of what we return.  I know what you are saying in that we 'improved' each year but in reality we didnt.  We went from an NCAA team with a Top 3 recruiting class into a 2 year disaster.  Miss out on the tournament last year to get smoke in the first round of the NIT as a top seed.  
Lavin has not lived up to his salary and I think its safe to say he will want a raise in addition to an extension.  That is where the divide will start.

Some perspective: After Kentucky, Michigan, Mich. St,, Wisc., Ohio State, Texas, Kansas, Ariz, Duke, Fla, and NC, are done recruiting how many five and four star recruits are left?  St. John's is literally not in their league.  If we get one every few years as we have, we are really doing well.  The program has and is making strides.

Thanks for creating this thread Dave.   I appreciate that everyone contributing has been so respectful.
This conversation needed to happen, and it's good that it's not overwhelming every other thread on the board.  

Some perspective: After Kentucky, Michigan, Mich. St,, Wisc., Ohio State, Texas, Kansas, Ariz, Duke, Fla, and NC, are done recruiting how many five and four star recruits are left? St. John's is literally not in their league. If we get one every few years as we have, we are really doing well. The program has and is making strides.

By my count in last year's class there were 68 of the top 100 who didn't commit to the 11 schools you mentioned (and I added UCLA and Louisville).   

The rest of our conference is recruiting 4star players and the occasional 5star.   That should be the expectation here as well.   

Some perspective: After Kentucky, Michigan, Mich. St,, Wisc., Ohio State, Texas, Kansas, Ariz, Duke, Fla, and NC, are done recruiting how many five and four star recruits are left? St. John's is literally not in their league. If we get one every few years as we have, we are really doing well. The program has and is making strides.

You are correct about getting a 5 or 4 star player here and there.  The problem is when you RELY on these players. We rely on these.  

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on December 08, 2014, 09:27:04 AM

Quote from: Moose on December 08, 2014, 08:46:49 AM

Quote from: redstorm212 on December 08, 2014, 05:51:16 AM

Basically we are setting him up to fail without an extension. If we are 10-1 going into Seton Hall and possibly a top 15 team, he's gotta be given an extension.

Are you ok with having to wait 4 years to be good again? I said it 4 years ago when the massive 9 man class turned into 6 and started whittling away. We were setting ourselves up to be good every 4 years. I'd like someone to build a team the right way and balance it with 4 year players and stability. I hope to hell this team wins big for these kids. But honestly I still walk away IMO.

Same can be asked of you. Are you okay with getting rid of a coach who's record has improved each year for an unknown? It would take a new coach 3-4 years anyway to become good again. Lavin is not a great game coach. I don't think he is as bad as most make him out to be though. He does need to find a way to blance the roster better. That will be the only way to substain the winning this fan base wants. IMO that starts with having a bunch of 3-star recruits that will be here for 4 years. Mix in a few 4-5 star recruits and you have something cooking.

Yes I am prepared to move in a new direction.  I know the team won't be good next year.  I hope we don't lose any unexpected players but I think we all know this day and age especially with SJU its pretty much par for the course.  I would rather build a team the right way instead of throwing crap against a wall and seeing what sticks. 
Next year is pretty close to the first year in terms of what we return.  I know what you are saying in that we 'improved' each year but in reality we didnt.  We went from an NCAA team with a Top 3 recruiting class into a 2 year disaster.  Miss out on the tournament last year to get smoke in the first round of the NIT as a top seed. 
Lavin has not lived up to his salary and I think its safe to say he will want a raise in addition to an extension.  That is where the divide will start.

Fair enough. But it's a crap shoot that the next coach would build a team the right way. Because for the most part that would mean sucking for a few seasons.

I also don't trust the admins and so called money men backing SJU to make the right choice if they do need to replace Lavin.

Quote from: Moose on December 08, 2014, 09:39:52 AM

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on December 08, 2014, 09:27:04 AM

Quote from: Moose on December 08, 2014, 08:46:49 AM

Quote from: redstorm212 on December 08, 2014, 05:51:16 AM

Basically we are setting him up to fail without an extension. If we are 10-1 going into Seton Hall and possibly a top 15 team, he's gotta be given an extension.

Are you ok with having to wait 4 years to be good again? I said it 4 years ago when the massive 9 man class turned into 6 and started whittling away. We were setting ourselves up to be good every 4 years. I'd like someone to build a team the right way and balance it with 4 year players and stability. I hope to hell this team wins big for these kids. But honestly I still walk away IMO.

Same can be asked of you. Are you okay with getting rid of a coach who's record has improved each year for an unknown? It would take a new coach 3-4 years anyway to become good again. Lavin is not a great game coach. I don't think he is as bad as most make him out to be though. He does need to find a way to blance the roster better. That will be the only way to substain the winning this fan base wants. IMO that starts with having a bunch of 3-star recruits that will be here for 4 years. Mix in a few 4-5 star recruits and you have something cooking.

Yes I am prepared to move in a new direction. I know the team won't be good next year. I hope we don't lose any unexpected players but I think we all know this day and age especially with SJU its pretty much par for the course. I would rather build a team the right way instead of throwing crap against a wall and seeing what sticks. Next year is pretty close to the first year in terms of what we return. I know what you are saying in that we 'improved' each year but in reality we didnt. We went from an NCAA team with a Top 3 recruiting class into a 2 year disaster. Miss out on the tournament last year to get smoke in the first round of the NIT as a top seed. Lavin has not lived up to his salary and I think its safe to say he will want a raise in addition to an extension. That is where the divide will start.

Fair enough. But it's a crap shoot that the next coach would build a team the right way. Because for the most part that would mean sucking for a few seasons. I also don't trust the admins and so called money men backing SJU to make the right choice if they do need to replace Lavin.

I think most of the names we would in theory go after will build it better.  We're talking coaches who make less $.  But yes we will suck for a few years.  I personally would rather suck with the right mindset instead of sucking and throwing out shit against a wall trying to get out from the hole quickly, but recklessly.

What are the typical buyout parameters in these situations?  Purely for optics, it would help a lot to lock him up for 3 more years so long as it isn't very cost prohibitive to get out. 

We start out behind these other school (and always or almost always will)....then this year and last year w had limited playing time to offer.  I believe Delarosa overtime will turn out to be fine.......time to stop complaining and start rooting loudly....and time for an extension.  It's not time to complain about the 2015 recruiting class until May or even later.

Can anyone honestly say our players have not improved? CO, PG, DP. etc.?  Did anyone watch us break the Cuse zone?  Hold Cooney?  Hit foul shots?  Limit turnovers?  Hang in against unfair calls?  Handle the crowd and the forum?

We start out behind these other school (and always or almost always will)....then this year and last year w had limited playing time to offer. I believe Delarosa overtime will turn out to be fine.......time to stop complaining and start rooting loudly....and time for an extension. It's not time to complain about the 2015 recruiting class until May or even later. Can anyone honestly say our players have not improved? CO, PG, DP. etc.? Did anyone watch us break the Cuse zone? Hold Cooney? Hit foul shots? Limit turnovers? Hang in against unfair calls? Handle the crowd and the forum?

I'm rooting loudly and also complaining about the 2015 (and 2014) recruiting classes.  That's the rub here.  The extension should be predicated on both past performance and expectations for the future, which is questionable at best given the roster and the dearth of available impact recruits.

If no extension, then fire him.  Lame duck is not a viable option.  It absolutely hurts the program.

We are still in the mix for some top 100 players.....Diallo, Sampson, Carter, Lovett etc.

Last year and year before, we had limited playing time to offer.   Recruits expected Sampson to stay.  There's not much playing time even now without him.   (Though obviously, CO won't play 40 every night.)

We start out behind these other school (and always or almost always will)....then this year and last year w had limited playing time to offer. I believe Delarosa overtime will turn out to be fine.......time to stop complaining and start rooting loudly....and time for an extension. It's not time to complain about the 2015 recruiting class until May or even later. Can anyone honestly say our players have not improved? CO, PG, DP. etc.? Did anyone watch us break the Cuse zone? Hold Cooney? Hit foul shots? Limit turnovers? Hang in against unfair calls? Handle the crowd and the forum?

We had a ton of playing time to offer this year.    Sampson 30mpg, Sanchez 22mpg, God's Gift 10mpg, Hooper 10mpg, Marco 5mpg  .. all left the program.

We start out behind these other school (and always or almost always will)....then this year and last year w had limited playing time to offer. I believe Delarosa overtime will turn out to be fine.......time to stop complaining and start rooting loudly....and time for an extension. It's not time to complain about the 2015 recruiting class until May or even later. Can anyone honestly say our players have not improved? CO, PG, DP. etc.? Did anyone watch us break the Cuse zone? Hold Cooney? Hit foul shots? Limit turnovers? Hang in against unfair calls? Handle the crowd and the forum?

Chris has improved.  But it took a trip to John Lucas it seems.
Dom was arguably the highest ranked player of that class.  4 years is a long time to finally hit stride.  That falls on both him and the staff.  Him and Phil both are examples of not being used properly.
More than 80% of the 2015 class is committed elsewhere.  I don't have the time or energy to look again but its likely 85-90%.  Yes we are still in it with Diallo and Sampson from an elite level.  But we could be facing a team next year where Jones and Stewart at 7 or 8 mpg are leading returners.
I know we stand on two sides of the line here.  And as Desco pointed out I'm happy this thread exists and we have kept it civil.  We wont a great game on Saturday but still doesnt mean the whole thing should be immune to constructive discussion from everyone for and against where we are headed.

Sampson's 30 only emerged in late, late Spring......It was obvious Jordan and CO would get more minutes this year (especially if they stayed out of foul trouble.)

If no extension, then fire him. Lame duck is not a viable option. It absolutely hurts the program.

There is no way he is coach next year with just 1 year left.  He wont stand for it and the school wont allow it either.  Something is going to give.

Quote from: simplyred on December 08, 2014, 10:33:25 AM

If no extension, then fire him. Lame duck is not a viable option. It absolutely hurts the program.

There is no way he is coach next year with just 1 year left. He wont stand for it and the school wont allow it either. Something is going to give.

I understand and agree.  The problem is that, if he is being retained, the extension should have been done by now.  And certainly before the end of the recruiting cycle.  It shouldn't wait until the end of this season.  There is enough of a body of work (including the early part of this season) upon which to decide whether or not you want to keep him.  Someone just needs to make the decision.

Does the new president come to any of the games?