Chicken/Egg -- Recruits/Extension

At 0-5 I thought he was worse then awful. His decisions weren't questionable they were amazingly bad. Since then the team has looked very good. They look well coached and they play hard. I assume the assistants are taking a larger role. Not making excuses for the guy but maybe he learned something. 

Fair enough. And therein lies the differences between posters. I don't think any of you consider Lavin a great x's and o's coach, or perfect by any stretch. But you would rather go with Lavin over either of those options which you see as unproven. I think there's another group of posters (including myself and Moose) who don't think Lavin is absolutely awful (he has done some good things), but think that if we're starting over next year we'd like to go with one of Hurley/Maissello.

I would add that Lavin having a stable asst coach will help him improve the in game coaching...The biggest issues I have making the switch is that it would leave the new coach to recruit...Especially if Jordan and CO leave. The new coach will have to rebuild the program in his vision all over again in his vision, and re-establish recruitment connections in NYC...Lavin has had some success in.
We don't know what Lavin is workibg on the recruitment trail, but I do know its a head start over the next potential coach...Unless there is a proven new coach that wants to come to SJU, I would keep Lavin here for at least three more years.

I will admit that part of my problem with letting Lavin go is what will become of the program long term with him gone. With Lavin, we still maintain a glimmer of hope that we can become a perennial power again. Almost nobody could have recruited as well as Lavin has at St. John's since he's been here. I know the past two years have been down, but that fact still remains. We were recently in the final two for a top 10 guy.

With Lavin, I think we will always have talent. I also think he knows he isn't the greatest X's and O's guy, which is a huge plus. He knows he needs a good assistant to help him out. Year one he had Dunlap, now he has Whitesell, maybe he will stay.

Bottom line, my problem with firing Lavin is that the Big East is no longer going to attract top coaches and top talent like it once did by itself. You need a recruiter, Lavin is a recruiter. You have to ask the question who are you going to replace Lavin with and can they do a better job? I don't see a clear example of a guy like that. Masiello? Maybe, definitely not a given. Pitino? What has he really proven?

I'm good giving Lavin an extension. I won't say he's undoubtedly deserved one, but the amount of crap he gets on this board is not deserving when you look at his overall tenure at St. John's. You can't have a lame duck coach, it's simply bad for the program no matter how you look at it. IF we make the tourney this year, that's 2/5 years dancing. Two consecutive 20 win seasons. We are St. John's. We have no business firing a coach like that.

We fire Lavin, in a watered down Big East, we are signing up as a mid major school. Some of you may be fine with that, I have higher goals.

That all makes a lot of sense!

I will admit that part of my problem with letting Lavin go is what will become of the program long term with him gone. With Lavin, we still maintain a glimmer of hope that we can become a perennial power again. Almost nobody could have recruited as well as Lavin has at St. John's since he's been here. I know the past two years have been down, but that fact still remains. We were recently in the final two for a top 10 guy. With Lavin, I think we will always have talent. I also think he knows he isn't the greatest X's and O's guy, which is a huge plus. He knows he needs a good assistant to help him out. Year one he had Dunlap, now he has Whitesell, maybe he will stay. Bottom line, my problem with firing Lavin is that the Big East is no longer going to attract top coaches and top talent like it once did by itself. You need a recruiter, Lavin is a recruiter. You have to ask the question who are you going to replace Lavin with and can they do a better job? I don't see a clear example of a guy like that. Masiello? Maybe, definitely not a given. Pitino? What has he really proven? I'm good giving Lavin an extension. I won't say he's undoubtedly deserved one, but the amount of crap he gets on this board is not deserving when you look at his overall tenure at St. John's. You can't have a lame duck coach, it's simply bad for the program no matter how you look at it. IF we make the tourney this year, that's 2/5 years dancing. Two consecutive 20 win seasons. We are St. John's. We have no business firing a coach like that. We fire Lavin, in a watered down Big East, we are signing up as a mid major school. Some of you may be fine with that, I have higher goals.

I'd agree with all of this if not for the near certainty that we will be rebuilding next year after a horrific 2014 class and what could be a thin 2015 class.  
On the one hand, we desperately need stability; a new staff means starting from square one and is hardly ideal given the number of regime changes in the last 15 years.  But unfortunately, keeping Lavin likely means that we have to deal with a down year next year and continuing to roll the dice on talented kids with either academic issues or worse (Artis).
If we enter league play at 11-1 and ranked, give him a compromised extension... if he takes it.  Interesting predicament.

Quote from: redstorm212 on December 08, 2014, 07:40:46 PM

I will admit that part of my problem with letting Lavin go is what will become of the program long term with him gone. With Lavin, we still maintain a glimmer of hope that we can become a perennial power again. Almost nobody could have recruited as well as Lavin has at St. John's since he's been here. I know the past two years have been down, but that fact still remains. We were recently in the final two for a top 10 guy. With Lavin, I think we will always have talent. I also think he knows he isn't the greatest X's and O's guy, which is a huge plus. He knows he needs a good assistant to help him out. Year one he had Dunlap, now he has Whitesell, maybe he will stay. Bottom line, my problem with firing Lavin is that the Big East is no longer going to attract top coaches and top talent like it once did by itself. You need a recruiter, Lavin is a recruiter. You have to ask the question who are you going to replace Lavin with and can they do a better job? I don't see a clear example of a guy like that. Masiello? Maybe, definitely not a given. Pitino? What has he really proven? I'm good giving Lavin an extension. I won't say he's undoubtedly deserved one, but the amount of crap he gets on this board is not deserving when you look at his overall tenure at St. John's. You can't have a lame duck coach, it's simply bad for the program no matter how you look at it. IF we make the tourney this year, that's 2/5 years dancing. Two consecutive 20 win seasons. We are St. John's. We have no business firing a coach like that. We fire Lavin, in a watered down Big East, we are signing up as a mid major school. Some of you may be fine with that, I have higher goals.

I'd agree with all of this if not for the near certainty that we will be rebuilding next year after a horrific 2014 class and what could be a thin 2015 class. 
On the one hand, we desperately need stability; a new staff means starting from square one and is hardly ideal given the number of regime changes in the last 15 years.  But unfortunately, keeping Lavin likely means that we have to deal with a down year next year and continuing to roll the dice on talented kids with either academic issues or worse (Artis).
If we enter league play at 11-1 and ranked, give him a compromised extension... if he takes it.  Interesting predicament.

With or without Lavin, next year will be a rebuilding season. With Lavin you know he can pull some 4 star recruits to Queens. I just don't see a possible replacement that can say the same.

Quote from: Gray Chudney on December 08, 2014, 07:58:14 PM

Quote from: redstorm212 on December 08, 2014, 07:40:46 PM

I will admit that part of my problem with letting Lavin go is what will become of the program long term with him gone. With Lavin, we still maintain a glimmer of hope that we can become a perennial power again. Almost nobody could have recruited as well as Lavin has at St. John's since he's been here. I know the past two years have been down, but that fact still remains. We were recently in the final two for a top 10 guy. With Lavin, I think we will always have talent. I also think he knows he isn't the greatest X's and O's guy, which is a huge plus. He knows he needs a good assistant to help him out. Year one he had Dunlap, now he has Whitesell, maybe he will stay. Bottom line, my problem with firing Lavin is that the Big East is no longer going to attract top coaches and top talent like it once did by itself. You need a recruiter, Lavin is a recruiter. You have to ask the question who are you going to replace Lavin with and can they do a better job? I don't see a clear example of a guy like that. Masiello? Maybe, definitely not a given. Pitino? What has he really proven? I'm good giving Lavin an extension. I won't say he's undoubtedly deserved one, but the amount of crap he gets on this board is not deserving when you look at his overall tenure at St. John's. You can't have a lame duck coach, it's simply bad for the program no matter how you look at it. IF we make the tourney this year, that's 2/5 years dancing. Two consecutive 20 win seasons. We are St. John's. We have no business firing a coach like that. We fire Lavin, in a watered down Big East, we are signing up as a mid major school. Some of you may be fine with that, I have higher goals.

I'd agree with all of this if not for the near certainty that we will be rebuilding next year after a horrific 2014 class and what could be a thin 2015 class. On the one hand, we desperately need stability; a new staff means starting from square one and is hardly ideal given the number of regime changes in the last 15 years. But unfortunately, keeping Lavin likely means that we have to deal with a down year next year and continuing to roll the dice on talented kids with either academic issues or worse (Artis). If we enter league play at 11-1 and ranked, give him a compromised extension... if he takes it. Interesting predicament.

With or without Lavin, next year will be a rebuilding season. With Lavin you know he can pull some 4 star recruits to Queens. I just don't see a possible replacement that can say the same.

Maybe but we are in rebuilding mode because Lavin bet the farm on a big 2015 class and it looks like he will come up short. If he does, I dont think it's worth an extension to have him attempt to fix a problem he created in the first place. Now, if he somehow pulls a few 3 and 4 star rabbits out of his ht for next year then give him a contract 

So many factors. 

For those who feel he deserves extension.
If you are President and Lavin comes to you 1. wanting an extension and 2. asking for more money.  What do you do?

Seems pretty simple to me.
I would ask how have you recruited last year, and so far this year?
Then I ask have you made the NCAA with the kids you recruited?

How would people who want him extended answer that question and still try to convince the president that you deserve a pay raise?

Good thread, fellas.  Good stuff, with no bad jokes  
Ironic though on the day we are ranked for the first time in 4 years people are so split on losing the coach. 
It's a tough call.  I would have given him the 5 year rollover deal that Norm had.  You can always cut bait without lame duck status.  You produce you stay.   You get lazy, you go.   You get what you deserve that way. 

I would have already offered that deal already.  Waiting this long is a mistake IMO.  
Hurts recruiting, one. Two, Lavin has a huge year and say wins 2 games in NCAA, he's in drivers seat.   He was in no position prior to season in demanding a raise.  He might have a leg to stand on at end if season.  
I would have locked him up , on my terms, with a buyout clause rollover dealio 

I would have already offered that deal already. Waiting this long is a mistake IMO. Hurts recruiting, one. Two, Lavin has a huge year and say wins 2 games in NCAA, he's in drivers seat. He was in no position prior to season in demanding a raise. He might have a leg to stand on at end if season. I would have locked him up , on my terms, with a buyout clause rollover dealio

+1 to Boo3 for using the word Dealio

Quote from: Gray Chudney on December 08, 2014, 07:58:14 PM

Quote from: redstorm212 on December 08, 2014, 07:40:46 PM

I will admit that part of my problem with letting Lavin go is what will become of the program long term with him gone. With Lavin, we still maintain a glimmer of hope that we can become a perennial power again. Almost nobody could have recruited as well as Lavin has at St. John's since he's been here. I know the past two years have been down, but that fact still remains. We were recently in the final two for a top 10 guy. With Lavin, I think we will always have talent. I also think he knows he isn't the greatest X's and O's guy, which is a huge plus. He knows he needs a good assistant to help him out. Year one he had Dunlap, now he has Whitesell, maybe he will stay. Bottom line, my problem with firing Lavin is that the Big East is no longer going to attract top coaches and top talent like it once did by itself. You need a recruiter, Lavin is a recruiter. You have to ask the question who are you going to replace Lavin with and can they do a better job? I don't see a clear example of a guy like that. Masiello? Maybe, definitely not a given. Pitino? What has he really proven? I'm good giving Lavin an extension. I won't say he's undoubtedly deserved one, but the amount of crap he gets on this board is not deserving when you look at his overall tenure at St. John's. You can't have a lame duck coach, it's simply bad for the program no matter how you look at it. IF we make the tourney this year, that's 2/5 years dancing. Two consecutive 20 win seasons. We are St. John's. We have no business firing a coach like that. We fire Lavin, in a watered down Big East, we are signing up as a mid major school. Some of you may be fine with that, I have higher goals.

I'd agree with all of this if not for the near certainty that we will be rebuilding next year after a horrific 2014 class and what could be a thin 2015 class. 
On the one hand, we desperately need stability; a new staff means starting from square one and is hardly ideal given the number of regime changes in the last 15 years.  But unfortunately, keeping Lavin likely means that we have to deal with a down year next year and continuing to roll the dice on talented kids with either academic issues or worse (Artis).
If we enter league play at 11-1 and ranked, give him a compromised extension... if he takes it.  Interesting predicament.

With or without Lavin, next year will be a rebuilding season. With Lavin you know he can pull some 4 star recruits to Queens. I just don't see a possible replacement that can say the same.

Where were they last year, and where are they this year?
Oh, that's right he's a lame duk coach so he needs an extension. Well last year he still had two years left on this contract.

Quote from: Moose on December 08, 2014, 12:30:38 PM

So many factors. 

For those who feel he deserves extension.
If you are President and Lavin comes to you 1. wanting an extension and 2. asking for more money.  What do you do?

Seems pretty simple to me.
I would ask how have you recruited last year, and so far this year?
Then I ask have you made the NCAA with the kids you recruited?

How would people who want him extended answer that question and still try to convince the president that you deserve a pay raise?

I would counter by asking the president who was the last coach to win 20 games (name and year) before I did it.

And also, who was the last coach to have a SJU team ranked in the top 25 (name and year).

For good measure I would also ask the president to name the last SJU coach and year that a top 30 recruit committed to SJU.

Quote from: mullin85berry86 on December 08, 2014, 08:48:42 PM

Quote from: Moose on December 08, 2014, 12:30:38 PM

So many factors. For those who feel he deserves extension. If you are President and Lavin comes to you 1. wanting an extension and 2. asking for more money. What do you do?

Seems pretty simple to me. I would ask how have you recruited last year, and so far this year? Then I ask have you made the NCAA with the kids you recruited? How would people who want him extended answer that question and still try to convince the president that you deserve a pay raise?

I would counter by asking the president who was the last coach to win 20 games (name and year) before I did it. And also, who was the last coach to have a SJU team ranked in the top 25 (name and year). For good measure I would also ask the president to name the last SJU coach and year that a top 30 recruit committed to SJU.

The president cares if the program is making money, going to the NCAAs and representing the school well. Team is about to explode in a good way. Lavin is going to be all over Fox 1. If we are in the top 20 when Duke comes NYC will take notice. Lavin could offer my nephew who is only 2 a scholarship. No one will care. Win he stays, lose hes out. Schedule is manageable. He is almost certainly staying.

Quote from: mullin85berry86 on December 08, 2014, 08:48:42 PM

Quote from: Moose on December 08, 2014, 12:30:38 PM

So many factors. 

For those who feel he deserves extension.
If you are President and Lavin comes to you 1. wanting an extension and 2. asking for more money.  What do you do?

Seems pretty simple to me.
I would ask how have you recruited last year, and so far this year?
Then I ask have you made the NCAA with the kids you recruited?

How would people who want him extended answer that question and still try to convince the president that you deserve a pay raise?

I would counter by asking the president who was the last coach to win 20 games (name and year) before I did it.

And also, who was the last coach to have a SJU team ranked in the top 25 (name and year).

For good measure I would also ask the president to name the last SJU coach and year that a top 30 recruit committed to SJU.

Then I would counter by asking yeah we got 20wins last year, but was the end result the NIT or the NCAA, and to please tell me what happened in the last game. Was the team unprepared vs. RM or did they just quit on you?

Yes we were ranked in your first year here but you took over 10 seniors. You didn't do good enough last year (I won't even include his recruit first two years, which they were still young.). True you got into the top 25 now, but we still don't know the end result.

Hey, getting top 30 recruits would be wonderful if we could see that on the court, which should be some pretty damn good basketball.
Yeah, we are seeing it now, but they're seniors in their last year.

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on December 08, 2014, 09:08:24 PM

Quote from: mullin85berry86 on December 08, 2014, 08:48:42 PM

Quote from: Moose on December 08, 2014, 12:30:38 PM

So many factors. 

For those who feel he deserves extension.
If you are President and Lavin comes to you 1. wanting an extension and 2. asking for more money.  What do you do?

Seems pretty simple to me.
I would ask how have you recruited last year, and so far this year?
Then I ask have you made the NCAA with the kids you recruited?

How would people who want him extended answer that question and still try to convince the president that you deserve a pay raise?

I would counter by asking the president who was the last coach to win 20 games (name and year) before I did it.

And also, who was the last coach to have a SJU team ranked in the top 25 (name and year).

For good measure I would also ask the president to name the last SJU coach and year that a top 30 recruit committed to SJU.

Then I would counter by asking yeah we got 20wins last year, but was the end result the NIT or the NCAA, and to please tell me what happened in the last game. Was the team unprepared vs. RM or did they just quit on you?

Yes we were ranked in your first year here but you took over 10 seniors. You didn't do good enough last year (I won't even include his recruit first two years, which they were still young.). True you got into the top 25 now, but we still don't know the end result.

Hey, getting top 30 recruits would be wonderful if we could see that on the court, which should be some pretty damn good basketball.
Yeah, we are seeing it now, but they're seniors in their last year.

How can you say we still don't know the end result in one post and not say the same thing in regard to recruiting?

Quote from: mullin85berry86 on December 08, 2014, 09:25:53 PM

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on December 08, 2014, 09:08:24 PM

Quote from: mullin85berry86 on December 08, 2014, 08:48:42 PM

Quote from: Moose on December 08, 2014, 12:30:38 PM

So many factors. 

For those who feel he deserves extension.
If you are President and Lavin comes to you 1. wanting an extension and 2. asking for more money.  What do you do?

Seems pretty simple to me.
I would ask how have you recruited last year, and so far this year?
Then I ask have you made the NCAA with the kids you recruited?

How would people who want him extended answer that question and still try to convince the president that you deserve a pay raise?

I would counter by asking the president who was the last coach to win 20 games (name and year) before I did it.

And also, who was the last coach to have a SJU team ranked in the top 25 (name and year).

For good measure I would also ask the president to name the last SJU coach and year that a top 30 recruit committed to SJU.

Then I would counter by asking yeah we got 20wins last year, but was the end result the NIT or the NCAA, and to please tell me what happened in the last game. Was the team unprepared vs. RM or did they just quit on you?

Yes we were ranked in your first year here but you took over 10 seniors. You didn't do good enough last year (I won't even include his recruit first two years, which they were still young.). True you got into the top 25 now, but we still don't know the end result.

Hey, getting top 30 recruits would be wonderful if we could see that on the court, which should be some pretty damn good basketball.
Yeah, we are seeing it now, but they're seniors in their last year.

How can you say we still don't know the end result in one post and not say the same thing in regard to recruiting?

Well so far recruiting doesn't look to good with 1  3* kid, Traci says is there is talent on the team then he'll come. So if CO and RJ leaves, he's not coming. How do you think our recruiting class will look?

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on December 08, 2014, 09:31:02 PM

Quote from: mullin85berry86 on December 08, 2014, 09:25:53 PM

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on December 08, 2014, 09:08:24 PM

Quote from: mullin85berry86 on December 08, 2014, 08:48:42 PM

Quote from: Moose on December 08, 2014, 12:30:38 PM

So many factors. For those who feel he deserves extension. If you are President and Lavin comes to you 1. wanting an extension and 2. asking for more money. What do you do?

Seems pretty simple to me. I would ask how have you recruited last year, and so far this year? Then I ask have you made the NCAA with the kids you recruited? How would people who want him extended answer that question and still try to convince the president that you deserve a pay raise?

I would counter by asking the president who was the last coach to win 20 games (name and year) before I did it. And also, who was the last coach to have a SJU team ranked in the top 25 (name and year). For good measure I would also ask the president to name the last SJU coach and year that a top 30 recruit committed to SJU.

Then I would counter by asking yeah we got 20wins last year, but was the end result the NIT or the NCAA, and to please tell me what happened in the last game. Was the team unprepared vs. RM or did they just quit on you? Yes we were ranked in your first year here but you took over 10 seniors. You didn't do good enough last year (I won't even include his recruit first two years, which they were still young.). True you got into the top 25 now, but we still don't know the end result. Hey, getting top 30 recruits would be wonderful if we could see that on the court, which should be some pretty damn good basketball. Yeah, we are seeing it now, but they're seniors in their last year.

How can you say we still don't know the end result in one post and not say the same thing in regard to recruiting?

Well so far recruiting doesn't look to good with 1 3* kid, Traci says is there is talent on the team then he'll come. So if CO and RJ leaves, he's not coming. How do you think our recruiting class will look?

Any shot of you staying on topic of whether to extend or not? Your manic & redundant recitations about recruiting are giving me a headache.

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on December 08, 2014, 09:31:02 PM

Quote from: mullin85berry86 on December 08, 2014, 09:25:53 PM

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on December 08, 2014, 09:08:24 PM

Quote from: mullin85berry86 on December 08, 2014, 08:48:42 PM

Quote from: Moose on December 08, 2014, 12:30:38 PM

So many factors. 

For those who feel he deserves extension.
If you are President and Lavin comes to you 1. wanting an extension and 2. asking for more money.  What do you do?

Seems pretty simple to me.
I would ask how have you recruited last year, and so far this year?
Then I ask have you made the NCAA with the kids you recruited?

How would people who want him extended answer that question and still try to convince the president that you deserve a pay raise?

I would counter by asking the president who was the last coach to win 20 games (name and year) before I did it.

And also, who was the last coach to have a SJU team ranked in the top 25 (name and year).

For good measure I would also ask the president to name the last SJU coach and year that a top 30 recruit committed to SJU.

Then I would counter by asking yeah we got 20wins last year, but was the end result the NIT or the NCAA, and to please tell me what happened in the last game. Was the team unprepared vs. RM or did they just quit on you?

Yes we were ranked in your first year here but you took over 10 seniors. You didn't do good enough last year (I won't even include his recruit first two years, which they were still young.). True you got into the top 25 now, but we still don't know the end result.

Hey, getting top 30 recruits would be wonderful if we could see that on the court, which should be some pretty damn good basketball.
Yeah, we are seeing it now, but they're seniors in their last year.

How can you say we still don't know the end result in one post and not say the same thing in regard to recruiting?

Well so far recruiting doesn't look to good with 1  3* kid, Traci says is there is talent on the team then he'll come. So if CO and RJ leaves, he's not coming. How do you think our recruiting class will look?

I think it will be a rebuilding year. 3-4 3 star recruits. Maybe a 4 star. Then either need to get a JUCO or 2. Or a transfer.

Quote from: mullin85berry86 on December 08, 2014, 09:47:10 PM

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on December 08, 2014, 09:31:02 PM

Quote from: mullin85berry86 on December 08, 2014, 09:25:53 PM

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on December 08, 2014, 09:08:24 PM

Quote from: mullin85berry86 on December 08, 2014, 08:48:42 PM

Quote from: Moose on December 08, 2014, 12:30:38 PM

So many factors. For those who feel he deserves extension. If you are President and Lavin comes to you 1. wanting an extension and 2. asking for more money. What do you do?

Seems pretty simple to me. I would ask how have you recruited last year, and so far this year? Then I ask have you made the NCAA with the kids you recruited? How would people who want him extended answer that question and still try to convince the president that you deserve a pay raise?

I would counter by asking the president who was the last coach to win 20 games (name and year) before I did it. And also, who was the last coach to have a SJU team ranked in the top 25 (name and year). For good measure I would also ask the president to name the last SJU coach and year that a top 30 recruit committed to SJU.

Then I would counter by asking yeah we got 20wins last year, but was the end result the NIT or the NCAA, and to please tell me what happened in the last game. Was the team unprepared vs. RM or did they just quit on you? Yes we were ranked in your first year here but you took over 10 seniors. You didn't do good enough last year (I won't even include his recruit first two years, which they were still young.). True you got into the top 25 now, but we still don't know the end result. Hey, getting top 30 recruits would be wonderful if we could see that on the court, which should be some pretty damn good basketball. Yeah, we are seeing it now, but they're seniors in their last year.

How can you say we still don't know the end result in one post and not say the same thing in regard to recruiting?

Well so far recruiting doesn't look to good with 1 3* kid, Traci says is there is talent on the team then he'll come. So if CO and RJ leaves, he's not coming. How do you think our recruiting class will look?

Any shot of you staying on topic of whether to extend or not? Your manic & redundant recitations about recruiting are giving me a headache.

Well if I'm bad for your health then why are you reading my posts?
Having a back and forth with 75.  So if you don't like my post don't read it, not forcing you to.