Program expectations + reality

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Re: Program expectations + reality
« Reply #60 on: March 22, 2015, 07:21:56 PM »
I agree with you, Poison, that NYC is a great place to live---for some.  Some prefer a different lifestyle.  To each his own.  In the past, Billy D has said how much he loves living in Florida and raising his children there.  Pitino has said that he loves living in Kentucky.

Tha Kid

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Re: Program expectations + reality
« Reply #61 on: March 22, 2015, 07:53:26 PM »
  Well,  proof is in the pudding as they say.   Show me the coaches lining up to coach in NY? 

Best Knicks could do was Derek Fisher.   Steve Kerr decided Bay Area over NyC.   

Free agent players no longer look at NYC as the great destination. 

Before you say, well the Knicks suck,  um. ... So does St Johns.

James Dolan might be a reason for Steve Kerr to take the job in the Bay Area. But if you're trying to make a point by bringing up one, and not the rest, you're not making a convincing argument. The Bay Area is a nice place to live. It's limited, like Chicago, but it's still pretty nice.

You don't think free agents look at NY as a great place to live? Not that this is proving or disproving your point, but if you haven't noticed, the Yankees have once again a $200 million dollar payroll made almost entirely of free agents.

And one thing you are not considering is just how much damage Harrington did to the St.John's program. People think Jarvis alienated high school coaches? Maybe he did, but that's nothing compared to the reputation Harrington had and completely earned as an unfair and unreasonable SOB. What coach would work for that man? The future of the program will come down to Gempesaw.

Is he here save our program, or destroy it?

Good for Mike Repole for refusing to accept mediocrity. I can't imagine he's made so much money by an it's better than it was attitude.

The Yankees can and HAVE to overpay for every free agent in order to get them to play here.  Other than Derek jeter name one guy who has taken a hometown discount?

So Id say this point is irrelevant as one could argue it's the money (or the history).  We have neither.

It's a well known fact that 10 years ago, when they were buying everyone under the sun, Carlos Beltran offered to take less money from the Yankees than the Mets offered him. Do you people really think NY is such a hole? If it's a such a hole why is it so expensive to live here?

In addition, Mariano Rivera, Bernie Williams and Paul O'Neill all took less to stay.  The Yankees are being outbid by Chicago, Boston and Seattle because they are finished with overpaying for players. Those examples, which is actually the present day, grossly overpaid to pry them away from NY.

The one thing Lavin has done better than anything else is he sold St.John's as NY, not as some tiny mom and pop school. And that's exactly how St.John's should be selling their head coaching position. Lavin likes a good restaurant. He likes culture. If a head coach likes to go out and kill his own dinner, ok then, stay in Ohio. It's not a fit.

Saying that people don't want to come to NY because it's a hole is insane. You may not want to but quite a few people do. The head coach, as we've seen with Lavin doesn't have to live in Queens. His digs in Soho are probably pretty damn nice.

The Yankees are not done overpaying for players.  Trust me.  They temporarily avoided it this year and this year alone (let's remember they severely overpaid for Jacoby Ellsbury just last season...) because they have way too many grossly overpaid players who aren't producing and the steinbrenners are sick of paying an insane luxury tax for a team that isn't a contender. This will all change back to status quo once a couple of these albatrosses come off the books.

And every single player you named who took a hometown discount was already a champion yankee by the time he did so.  Duke or Kentucky is as analogous to the Yankees as you can get right now.  St. John's is like the mets.  And disregarding any players who get paid under the table or whatever, the way schools differentiate themselves to these kids are 1) chances to get them to pro quickly (ie the coaches ability to improve them and market them), 2) facilities, and 3) location/campus life

You are absolutely right that we kill it in location if a kid can be sold on NYC.  But lots of kids from the city want to get away esp now that it's so easy to keep in touch w anyone anywhere, and many kids not from city might be hesitant about playing in the biggest city.  And they aren't residing in plush dorms on Washington square park like nyu kids.  It's queens.  Our facilities have been improved but still we could do better.  And our coach obviously is able to sell some kids but hasn't been consistently selling the big guns.

I think this is a high risk high reward job but a lot of coaches are scared of the risk, I'm sure.  Is lavin and norm before him not recruiting well because of lavin and norm or because of the facilities and school and location?  Also every single one of our coaches who failed has NEVER coached in a major conference again. So basically you come here to die, so the risk seems a lot higher than the reward.  You need a coach so confident in himself to come here that the city won't swallow him whole and the pressure won't either AND he won't get lazy enjoying all nyc has to offer rather than doing what he is paid to do most of the time. Calipari was like that but we turned him down.  Perhaps a Hurley is like that but I don't know.

Point is it makes a lot of sense why Donovan and any other big time coach would not jump here. It also is highly desirable to someone bc I truly believe if they succeed here they would be on the short list wherever they want to go (Hurley, perhaps Duke), etc.  But it seems like a super high risk and a super high reward but the reward has not been attained by anyone since Lou.  That's daunting.

And let's not forget 2M here makes you just another very well off person of which there are many in NYC in the scheme of things. 2M in most of the rest of the country makes you an absolute baller stud who can afford the nicest house and do the nicest thing at all times without any concern. Let's not forget that.
"I drink and I know things"

Re: Program expectations + reality
« Reply #62 on: March 22, 2015, 08:03:53 PM »
Expectations=Wichita St

Poison

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Re: Program expectations + reality
« Reply #63 on: March 22, 2015, 08:43:07 PM »
  Well,  proof is in the pudding as they say.   Show me the coaches lining up to coach in NY? 

Best Knicks could do was Derek Fisher.   Steve Kerr decided Bay Area over NyC.   

Free agent players no longer look at NYC as the great destination. 

Before you say, well the Knicks suck,  um. ... So does St Johns.

James Dolan might be a reason for Steve Kerr to take the job in the Bay Area. But if you're trying to make a point by bringing up one, and not the rest, you're not making a convincing argument. The Bay Area is a nice place to live. It's limited, like Chicago, but it's still pretty nice.

You don't think free agents look at NY as a great place to live? Not that this is proving or disproving your point, but if you haven't noticed, the Yankees have once again a $200 million dollar payroll made almost entirely of free agents.

And one thing you are not considering is just how much damage Harrington did to the St.John's program. People think Jarvis alienated high school coaches? Maybe he did, but that's nothing compared to the reputation Harrington had and completely earned as an unfair and unreasonable SOB. What coach would work for that man? The future of the program will come down to Gempesaw.

Is he here save our program, or destroy it?

Good for Mike Repole for refusing to accept mediocrity. I can't imagine he's made so much money by an it's better than it was attitude.

The Yankees can and HAVE to overpay for every free agent in order to get them to play here.  Other than Derek jeter name one guy who has taken a hometown discount?

So Id say this point is irrelevant as one could argue it's the money (or the history).  We have neither.

It's a well known fact that 10 years ago, when they were buying everyone under the sun, Carlos Beltran offered to take less money from the Yankees than the Mets offered him. Do you people really think NY is such a hole? If it's a such a hole why is it so expensive to live here?

In addition, Mariano Rivera, Bernie Williams and Paul O'Neill all took less to stay.  The Yankees are being outbid by Chicago, Boston and Seattle because they are finished with overpaying for players. Those examples, which is actually the present day, grossly overpaid to pry them away from NY.

The one thing Lavin has done better than anything else is he sold St.John's as NY, not as some tiny mom and pop school. And that's exactly how St.John's should be selling their head coaching position. Lavin likes a good restaurant. He likes culture. If a head coach likes to go out and kill his own dinner, ok then, stay in Ohio. It's not a fit.

Saying that people don't want to come to NY because it's a hole is insane. You may not want to but quite a few people do. The head coach, as we've seen with Lavin doesn't have to live in Queens. His digs in Soho are probably pretty damn nice.

The Yankees are not done overpaying for players.  Trust me.  They temporarily avoided it this year and this year alone (let's remember they severely overpaid for Jacoby Ellsbury just last season...) because they have way too many grossly overpaid players who aren't producing and the steinbrenners are sick of paying an insane luxury tax for a team that isn't a contender. This will all change back to status quo once a couple of these albatrosses come off the books.

And every single player you named who took a hometown discount was already a champion yankee by the time he did so.  Duke or Kentucky is as analogous to the Yankees as you can get right now.  St. John's is like the mets.  And disregarding any players who get paid under the table or whatever, the way schools differentiate themselves to these kids are 1) chances to get them to pro quickly (ie the coaches ability to improve them and market them), 2) facilities, and 3) location/campus life

You are absolutely right that we kill it in location if a kid can be sold on NYC.  But lots of kids from the city want to get away esp now that it's so easy to keep in touch w anyone anywhere, and many kids not from city might be hesitant about playing in the biggest city.  And they aren't residing in plush dorms on Washington square park like nyu kids.  It's queens.  Our facilities have been improved but still we could do better.  And our coach obviously is able to sell some kids but hasn't been consistently selling the big guns.

I think this is a high risk high reward job but a lot of coaches are scared of the risk, I'm sure.  Is lavin and norm before him not recruiting well because of lavin and norm or because of the facilities and school and location?  Also every single one of our coaches who failed has NEVER coached in a major conference again. So basically you come here to die, so the risk seems a lot higher than the reward.  You need a coach so confident in himself to come here that the city won't swallow him whole and the pressure won't either AND he won't get lazy enjoying all nyc has to offer rather than doing what he is paid to do most of the time. Calipari was like that but we turned him down.  Perhaps a Hurley is like that but I don't know.

Point is it makes a lot of sense why Donovan and any other big time coach would not jump here. It also is highly desirable to someone bc I truly believe if they succeed here they would be on the short list wherever they want to go (Hurley, perhaps Duke), etc.  But it seems like a super high risk and a super high reward but the reward has not been attained by anyone since Lou.  That's daunting.

And let's not forget 2M here makes you just another very well off person of which there are many in NYC in the scheme of things. 2M in most of the rest of the country makes you an absolute baller stud who can afford the nicest house and do the nicest thing at all times without any concern. Let's not forget that.

I think we are getting sidetracked talking about the Yankees. St.John's isn't the Yankees. No team is, so there is no comparison. The Yankees don't feel the burn when they spend ridiculous amounts of money. They are too big to lose in that regard.

In terms of local talent that wants to get away from NY, go right ahead. That's is nothing new. Some of these kids desperately need a change of scenery.

I'm talking strictly about the coach. And I agree that 2 million in NYC doesn't go as far as it does as say Cincinnati, but given that, isn't it silly to argue that people don't want to live in NY? If that was the case it would be cheap to live here.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 08:43:48 PM by Poison »

jr49

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Re: Program expectations + reality
« Reply #64 on: March 22, 2015, 09:22:33 PM »
The bottom line is this, although Lavin's results is not what we would like, its not bad. Plus we know he will bring in recruits. The guards in this upcoming class is better than the guards in his first class. He just needs to bring in some bigs. Do you really want to take a flyer on a coach after what this program has been through the past decade? If we are no going to bring in a proven coach, and by that I also mean recruiter, then we need to keep Lavin.
I don't know if he will bring in real BE players. Hooper and Borgo were a smokescreen. We have had Phil playing the point. No quality point guard since he has been hear. We don't have any bigs in the fold. Amir, jdr, and adr, don't cut it. Another smokescreen? Coach Lavin comming back is fine, but if he can't bring in a quality PG and a couple of bigs who can play he does not belong here. We were down to 4 guards and a wing playing a tourny game. That is not done by a pro BE coach. How do you know he is going to bring in players when he played guys out of position and needed them to go 40?

Re: Program expectations + reality
« Reply #65 on: March 22, 2015, 09:27:05 PM »
The bottom line is this, although Lavin's results is not what we would like, its not bad. Plus we know he will bring in recruits. The guards in this upcoming class is better than the guards in his first class. He just needs to bring in some bigs. Do you really want to take a flyer on a coach after what this program has been through the past decade? If we are no going to bring in a proven coach, and by that I also mean recruiter, then we need to keep Lavin.
I don't know if he will bring in real BE players. Hooper and Borgo were a smokescreen. We have had Phil playing the point. No quality point guard since he has been hear. We don't have any bigs in the fold. Amir, jdr, and adr, don't cut it. Another smokescreen? Coach Lavin comming back is fine, but if he can't bring in a quality PG and a couple of bigs who can play he does not belong here. We were down to 4 guards and a wing playing a tourny game. That is not done by a pro BE coach. How do you know he is going to bring in players when he played guys out of position and needed them to go 40?

Yet, some say we have the most talented roster in the BE and it is the coaching that is lacking.

Poison

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Re: Program expectations + reality
« Reply #66 on: March 22, 2015, 09:46:29 PM »
The bottom line is this, although Lavin's results is not what we would like, its not bad. Plus we know he will bring in recruits. The guards in this upcoming class is better than the guards in his first class. He just needs to bring in some bigs. Do you really want to take a flyer on a coach after what this program has been through the past decade? If we are no going to bring in a proven coach, and by that I also mean recruiter, then we need to keep Lavin.
I don't know if he will bring in real BE players. Hooper and Borgo were a smokescreen. We have had Phil playing the point. No quality point guard since he has been hear. We don't have any bigs in the fold. Amir, jdr, and adr, don't cut it. Another smokescreen? Coach Lavin comming back is fine, but if he can't bring in a quality PG and a couple of bigs who can play he does not belong here. We were down to 4 guards and a wing playing a tourny game. That is not done by a pro BE coach. How do you know he is going to bring in players when he played guys out of position and needed them to go 40?

Yet, some say we have the most talented roster in the BE and it is the coaching that is lacking.

We did have a very talented roster, but the staff didn't add one capable contributor, and that killed the season. Nova's guys got a breather. You can't have players going hard for 40 minutes for an entire season. The kids really played with fire this year. They deserved a better ending.

jr49

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Re: Program expectations + reality
« Reply #67 on: March 22, 2015, 10:00:12 PM »
The bottom line is this, although Lavin's results is not what we would like, its not bad. Plus we know he will bring in recruits. The guards in this upcoming class is better than the guards in his first class. He just needs to bring in some bigs. Do you really want to take a flyer on a coach after what this program has been through the past decade? If we are no going to bring in a proven coach, and by that I also mean recruiter, then we need to keep Lavin.
I don't know if he will bring in real BE players. Hooper and Borgo were a smokescreen. We have had Phil playing the point. No quality point guard since he has been hear. We don't have any bigs in the fold. Amir, jdr, and adr, don't cut it. Another smokescreen? Coach Lavin comming back is fine, but if he can't bring in a quality PG and a couple of bigs who can play he does not belong here. We were down to 4 guards and a wing playing a tourny game. That is not done by a pro BE coach. How do you know he is going to bring in players when he played guys out of position and needed them to go 40?

Yet, some say we have the most talented roster in the BE and it is the coaching that is lacking.
Our Only point guard did not get starter minutes, we had no PF, and a center with no offensive game. Our roster was so loaded coach needed guys to give him 40. Playing 4 guards and a wing vs. a big sdsu in a tourny. game shows the great depth of this roster. I liked these kids plenty, but any talk of a big time roster was silly. I watch the tourny and wonder when we gonna get the kind of players I am seeing.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 10:01:40 PM by jr49 »

Re: Program expectations + reality
« Reply #68 on: March 22, 2015, 10:11:21 PM »
The bottom line is this, although Lavin's results is not what we would like, its not bad. Plus we know he will bring in recruits. The guards in this upcoming class is better than the guards in his first class. He just needs to bring in some bigs. Do you really want to take a flyer on a coach after what this program has been through the past decade? If we are no going to bring in a proven coach, and by that I also mean recruiter, then we need to keep Lavin.
I don't know if he will bring in real BE players. Hooper and Borgo were a smokescreen. We have had Phil playing the point. No quality point guard since he has been hear. We don't have any bigs in the fold. Amir, jdr, and adr, don't cut it. Another smokescreen? Coach Lavin comming back is fine, but if he can't bring in a quality PG and a couple of bigs who can play he does not belong here. We were down to 4 guards and a wing playing a tourny game. That is not done by a pro BE coach. How do you know he is going to bring in players when he played guys out of position and needed them to go 40?

Yet, some say we have the most talented roster in the BE and it is the coaching that is lacking.
Our Only point guard did not get starter minutes, we had no PF, and a center with no offensive game. Our roster was so loaded coach needed guys to give him 40. Playing 4 guards and a wing vs. a big sdsu in a tourny. game shows the great depth of this roster. I liked these kids plenty, but any talk of a big time roster was silly. I watch the tourny and wonder when we gonna get the kind of players I am seeing.

So it was lack of a roster.  Not the coaching.

Re: Program expectations + reality
« Reply #69 on: March 22, 2015, 10:14:05 PM »
The bottom line is this, although Lavin's results is not what we would like, its not bad. Plus we know he will bring in recruits. The guards in this upcoming class is better than the guards in his first class. He just needs to bring in some bigs. Do you really want to take a flyer on a coach after what this program has been through the past decade? If we are no going to bring in a proven coach, and by that I also mean recruiter, then we need to keep Lavin.
I don't know if he will bring in real BE players. Hooper and Borgo were a smokescreen. We have had Phil playing the point. No quality point guard since he has been hear. We don't have any bigs in the fold. Amir, jdr, and adr, don't cut it. Another smokescreen? Coach Lavin comming back is fine, but if he can't bring in a quality PG and a couple of bigs who can play he does not belong here. We were down to 4 guards and a wing playing a tourny game. That is not done by a pro BE coach. How do you know he is going to bring in players when he played guys out of position and needed them to go 40?

Yet, some say we have the most talented roster in the BE and it is the coaching that is lacking.
Our Only point guard did not get starter minutes, we had no PF, and a center with no offensive game. Our roster was so loaded coach needed guys to give him 40. Playing 4 guards and a wing vs. a big sdsu in a tourny. game shows the great depth of this roster. I liked these kids plenty, but any talk of a big time roster was silly. I watch the tourny and wonder when we gonna get the kind of players I am seeing.

So it was lack of a roster.  Not the coaching.

Why the lack of depth on the roster? Because of the coaching

Re: Program expectations + reality
« Reply #70 on: March 22, 2015, 10:25:53 PM »
^^ Now my head is spinning!

Re: Program expectations + reality
« Reply #71 on: March 22, 2015, 11:51:40 PM »
The lack of sophistication and experience on this board is hilarious. " If you want to kill you own dinner stay in Ohio"?   Ohio?  You can't make this nonsense up.  I hope these are not SJU grads spewing this nonsense.

Poison

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Re: Program expectations + reality
« Reply #72 on: March 23, 2015, 12:01:12 AM »
The lack of sophistication and experience on this board is hilarious. " If you want to kill you own dinner stay in Ohio"?   Ohio?  You can't make this nonsense up.  I hope these are not SJU grads spewing this nonsense.

Are you really that thick?

Re: Program expectations + reality
« Reply #73 on: March 23, 2015, 07:36:04 AM »
My expectation for the program the next 4 years is a lot of losing.

I would be happy with 2 Ncaa tournament appearances in that time frame.  Anything else would be gravy.

Re: Program expectations + reality
« Reply #74 on: March 23, 2015, 02:21:43 PM »
My expectation for the program the next 4 years is a lot of losing.

I would be happy with 2 Ncaa tournament appearances in that time frame.  Anything else would be gravy.
How are we making 2 NCAA T in the next 4 years if as you say you expect a lot of losing?

jr49

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Re: Program expectations + reality
« Reply #75 on: March 23, 2015, 04:24:12 PM »
The bottom line is this, although Lavin's results is not what we would like, its not bad. Plus we know he will bring in recruits. The guards in this upcoming class is better than the guards in his first class. He just needs to bring in some bigs. Do you really want to take a flyer on a coach after what this program has been through the past decade? If we are no going to bring in a proven coach, and by that I also mean recruiter, then we need to keep Lavin.
I don't know if he will bring in real BE players. Hooper and Borgo were a smokescreen. We have had Phil playing the point. No quality point guard since he has been hear. We don't have any bigs in the fold. Amir, jdr, and adr, don't cut it. Another smokescreen? Coach Lavin comming back is fine, but if he can't bring in a quality PG and a couple of bigs who can play he does not belong here. We were down to 4 guards and a wing playing a tourny game. That is not done by a pro BE coach. How do you know he is going to bring in players when he played guys out of position and needed them to go 40?

Yet, some say we have the most talented roster in the BE and it is the coaching that is lacking.
Our Only point guard did not get starter minutes, we had no PF, and a center with no offensive game. Our roster was so loaded coach needed guys to give him 40. Playing 4 guards and a wing vs. a big sdsu in a tourny. game shows the great depth of this roster. I liked these kids plenty, but any talk of a big time roster was silly. I watch the tourny and wonder when we gonna get the kind of players I am seeing.

So it was lack of a roster.  Not the coaching.
Yes. If a GM left a coach with this roster he could justifiably ask where's the beef. Lavin said when he came here he needed 2 of each. He could not get it done.  At some positions he did not even have one player, let alone two. The players over achieved bailing out the coach and GM. Guys did a great job getting to 10-7 but the make up of the roster did not allow them to finish up strong. I'll leave it to guys who know better then me the level of coaching the team got. I do know the roster was badly lacking.

Marillac

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Re: Program expectations + reality
« Reply #76 on: March 23, 2015, 05:17:17 PM »
I think a lot of discussion will be had over the next month or more about:

-Where the program is.
-Where the program should be.
-Where the program is going.

In the next 4 years what are your expectations for this program?

What is threshold you consider this team should reach annually?

X Wins
X Place
NCAA Appearance?
NIT Appearance?
1 win, 2 wins, 3 wins in tourney?

Good post.

I thought I'd be fine with just making the dance.  I was wrong.  That loss, and especially how we lost, really hurt. 

With the right coach we can be very good.  There just aren't a lot of guys that can recruit and coach. 

Re: Program expectations + reality
« Reply #77 on: March 23, 2015, 05:24:53 PM »
Expectation: Belmont only win tournament games, up there to win the conference every year and make a run at a Big East title

Need solid recruits that are commited  to stay for the long haul. Grab a solid transfer every now and then. Jamal Branch was a good transfer and there was a reason Joey De La Rosa didn't play at FIU. Need recruits that are eligible and a consistent team that will win you 17-23 games a year.

Thoughts?

desco80

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Re: Program expectations + reality
« Reply #78 on: March 23, 2015, 06:04:01 PM »
I think a lot of discussion will be had over the next month or more about:

-Where the program is.
-Where the program should be.
-Where the program is going.

In the next 4 years what are your expectations for this program?

What is threshold you consider this team should reach annually?

X Wins
X Place
NCAA Appearance?
NIT Appearance?
1 win, 2 wins, 3 wins in tourney?

Good post.

I thought I'd be fine with just making the dance.  I was wrong.  That loss, and especially how we lost, really hurt. 

With the right coach we can be very good.  There just aren't a lot of guys that can recruit and coach. 

I think it stings more than it should "on paper", because emotionally this is what we were building towards.
This is the season that our first class of elite recruits would be seniors, and our second generation of recruits (Obekpa and RJ) would be experienced in their own right.
Couple that with the fact that we all thought that Lavin's recruiting would be phenomenal when he had time to recruit kids from 8th grade through high school, and we expected this to be the time our recruiting would really be taking off as well.   

As fans, and partly due to what coach told us, we build up 2014, 2015, 2016 to be a time when our program would be peaking. 
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 06:04:23 PM by desco80 »

Re: Program expectations + reality
« Reply #79 on: March 23, 2015, 07:10:58 PM »
I still somewhat hold that hope that a 2011 recruiting class will come again soon. Those guys took the risk playing for Lavin and lived up to the hype.