Big East Tournament

Gonzaga 3 point favs over SHU. Im surprised by that

That's good...Need SH to play with chip on shoulder

Nothing Seton Hall did was against the rules.  It may rub people the wrong way, including many Seton Hall fans (check their board at this time last year), but ultimately the gamble paid off.  And their fans gladly accept the trade off right now.

Disagree with your view that the Hall "outworked" us on and off the court.  Willard made a gamble that Lavin wasn't - it cost Lavin his job in all likelihood, and there was a lot of irony to our former coach being so present at the Big East this week while the NYC recruits made their run.

I'm still positive about our future with the current staff.  At this time last year, if you would have told any Seton Hall fan they would be BE champs, they would have laughed.  That program was in major turmoil - their best player (at that time) transferring, locker room in-fighting, gripes about Willard first 5 years (which were not good by any measure), and the Tiny fiasco.  What the Hall's run shows me is that programs can turn things around rather quickly in this age of college hoops.  And for that reason I'm excited about next year, and to see what this staff does with the remainder of the roster for 2016.

Willard and SHU out worked us on the court and off it.. Unless the ncaa accuses them of something shady,  they are good to go... Crying now looks weak. 

Bottom line , they got to celebrate a big east title at MSG ( which thru referred to as their home),  and St. John's is at , yet another, rock bottom... Amazing how year after year, that bottom floor gets lowered. 

We are.....

Quote from: paultzman on March 13, 2016, 04:14:02 PM

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SH has continued to show they know how to win.  Love em or hate em, Willard doing what he is paid to do..

He shouldn't be paid to break rules.

The horse is beyond dead man!

Are you kidding me.  I was called out on our own board for defending the program against cheaters and I'm the one that should not post about it.  Someone got fired here for not bringing in recruits and you shouldn't post about it.  I cited the rule.  How is this not relevant to the program.  Everyone was saying Willard did not break the rules.  I[pointed out how he did, and I'm the one who shouldn't have made the posts. If someone makes an error while they are trying to refute my argument then I have to respond.  Right?  What is the board for if you can't point things like this out.  Read the rule and explain to me how he did not break it.  What, because the Hall was not stupid enough to write the contingency into the contract so you can't prove there was quid pro quo.

It reminds me of when Clinton pardoned that fugitive criminal and said you can't prove there was quid pro qou for the gifts I received from him.  And  then Jimmy Carter, a Democrat himself, published an editorial in the Times saying "one assumes there was quid pro quo".  It was a pretty damning piece by Carter. 

Nothing is changing, so may be time to move on or take it to Supreme Court. Getting tedious. You have made your point. This is getting like an Aleve commercial.

If someone contradicts you in error then you have to respond. Right? If someone attacks you personally you have to respond. Right? I was asked to cite a rule. I did it.  People didn't have to call me out.  Several posters.  They are the reasons why this has gone on.  Not me. I have to defend myself. You should trust me by now that I know what I'm talking about.  Don't attack me.

I could understand if this was a Seton Hall board that there would be some fireworks because they would lose their objectivity.  They do.  But come on dudes this is the Jungle.  We should be circling the wagons.  Our program is on life support.  Someone stole key recruits at a critical juncture in program history.  Someone lost their job because of this.  This is relevant.  This is important.

"Storm the Bastile" 

I find it amazing how thousands and thousands of posts could be made by someone about SJU hoops and the person doesn't seem to care, even when they  shown how Lavin was cheated out of his job.  And now Willard basks in the glory.  Oh but wait a minute.  You knew the whole time he broke the rule, you just didn't care that we were cheated out of IW and Carrington.   Gee, "Storm the Bastille".  Wow you're so sophisticated you don't even care that we only won one game. Fourteen thousand posts.

Nah, just find your posts tedious and repetitive, but let's move on.

Don't condescend to me.  You said there was no rule.  I showed how you were wrong.  If you didn't say stuff like that I wouldn't have responded.  Because it's tedious when people continually say he didn't cheat when he so obviously did. It's real simple Paultz. If you don't want to hear about Willard cheating don't post there is no rule. Get it. If you don't want to admit that you stirred the pot with your post then fine.  If you don't want to admit you were wrong then fine.  Just don't respond when I post that they cheated to get their championship.  We bash Lavin here a lot.  Myself included.  He should have had back up plans.  This is important; recruiting.  This is what we post about.  We would have had IW and probably Carrington but we were cheated out of him.  As far as SH long term, that is another issue.  The issue here is we only won one game because we had no players as late as last April.  Why?  Is there something for us to complain about on Johnny Jungle?  Like nobody does.  And they should.  We won one game.

Where do you draw the line? Let's get ourselves in a tizzy over this and only local rule breaking or in-conference rule breaking. Who knows how many times UNC, Duke, Kentucky, Baylor, Ohio State, or any other bigger programs than ours did something shady, illegal, or technically illegal to bump us off a recruits list early in the process? And I get the counterpoint of "We know about this one though." But what is it going to accomplish? You honestly think if Willard's job is on the line, or any other coach for that matter in the Big East (except maybe Jay Wright, John Thompson III, or even Chris Mullin) wouldn't do the same thing again? And even  if we were to go back in time and point it out and by some luck we landed Whitehead and Carrington or whoever it was decided to come to St. John's (first of all, I can't imagine Jordan and Whitehead getting along). Lavin keeps his job and has a pretty good squad. HE CAN'T COACH!! He let a bunch of athletic players do pretty much whatever they wanted. So you want to sign up for a few good recruiting classes and maybe two tourney appearances every 5 years where we never win and never get seeded higher than like a 6 seed? Also probably never having much success in the Big East tournament? Lavin's teams consistently underperformed and were frustrating to watch.

Great for Seton Hall. They won the Big East tournament and have a chance to make a nice run in NCAA's. But even if most of their team returns, AT THIS POINT IN TIME I will take St. John's next 10 years over Seton Hall's. But that's just my opinion. I have no facts, just a feeling.

As long as you are asking questions here I'm happy to answer.  I suggest if anyone finds it tedious then they shouldn't read the thread.

Wow!  I think that's extraordinary.  I respect the fact that you didn't "call me out" like a few posters have done. But I respect that that's your opinion.  I don't understand it though.  We won one game.  They won the championship.  They had IW.  We didn't.  How are we better off?  You need to win now in order to recruit for the future.  Having good players and good teams now helps you recruit later. Not the other way around. Exhibit A for Lavin at STJ is Mo.  IW is at least as good as Mo was.  And he was poised to bring others with him as he did at SH, culminating in a championship.  This bodes very well for their recruiting going forward.  They just got a commitment  from a four star guard over the weekend, for example.  We didn't. It's easy to recruit from a position of strength.  We, on the other hand are in big trouble. We have two more wings to replace.  They will have to be better then the last wings. We also need a strong big.  These players don't grow on trees because if they did, everyone would have them.  IW was an All American.  We haven't had one of those in at least two decades.  That would have been really big for the program.

Now you say that cheating goes on all over the place.  Of course that's true.  My first thought about that is that it needs to stop, or at least slow down.  How would you accomplish that?  By saying, "oh well, it's very common", and do nothing?  No, the fact that cheating is so rampant makes it all the more important to crack down on it, or it will become even more rampant. If somebody violates a bylaw, action needs to be taken.  The same, of course, is true for society at large.  Otherwise what is the purpose of having the laws in the first place.

Personally I feel violated by what they did, and the fact that some "journalists" didn't do their research offends me further.  They reported that it was a "package deal", and that it was perfectly legal.  Well, both can't be true, because bylaw 11.4.1.1 prohibits them.

I admit I was angered at the time of their illegal recruiting activity two and a half years ago.  Them winning the championship has brought some of that anger back again.  Although I wouldn't characterize it as "getting in a tizzy" as you did.  This is not a technicality.  You just can't go around hiring people's high school coaches in package deals.  The rules just flat out prohibit it.  It's not a technicality.  It's a tactic used to snare recruits away from other coaches at the eleventh hour, who could then lose their jobs if they don't have back up plans.  Hardly a technicality.  I'm proud that our coaches didn't use those tactics.  And I'm ashamed of the Coach Jarvis regime for paying those players.  What a disgrace.

What I object to on JJ is the fact that people "called me out" personally.  Attacked me personally on this issue.  You should never do that.  Just say why you disagree and we'd all benefit from hearing another perspective.  One poster said I didn't know what was talking about. Others a little worse. (It's easy online because the internet creates distance and anonymity). But then when the rule was subsequently found, no mea culpas.  Just more personal attacks. Tedious!  [ Why are we still talking about this] they said? Well, because you said I didn't know what I was talking about. That's why.

Someone used illegal recruiting tactics to steal an All American from us.  We won one game and they won the championship.  THAT is a big deal.  Not a mundane issue as some have suggested.
 

Willie - You keep saying that SH stole him from us...

Are you 100% sure that if there was no Tiny Morton... SJU was 100% lock to land IW over any other school and that IW would not have selected some national powerhouse to attend ?

If not, then you can't say anything was stolen from us. 

Willie - You keep saying that SH stole him from us...

Are you 100% sure that if there was no Tiny Morton... SJU was 100% lock to land IW over any other school and that IW would not have selected some national powerhouse to attend ?

If not, then you can't say anything was stolen from us.

It was reported to be pretty close to 100% at the time, NC.  After his last meeting with Lavin.  Then, 12 hours later, news of the package deal with SH surfaced. I think Carrington signed first but IW committed first. I'm not sure, but I think Delgado was involved too. (of this I'm not certain) It was a recruiting  bonanza for them. IW is the heart of the team.  Their go to guy.

But they didn't even make the sham post about the job opening until eight months later.  Then he was quietly hired over the summer.

Watching the ESPN stuff I've had ambivalent feelings towards SH.  I don't like how they have this requiem for the Big East attitude. Trying to talk the Big East down.  Saying the Big East doesn't do well in March. CBS' Barkley talking us down. It's wrong. It may be working though because Big East recruiting is way down.  It's because Fox holds our  TV contract. Not ESPN or CBS. So I will be pulling for all Big East Teams.  Families stick together.

As long as you are asking questions here I'm happy to answer.  I suggest if anyone finds it tedious then they shouldn't read the thread.

Wow!  I think that's extraordinary.  I respect the fact that you didn't "call me out" like a few posters have done. But I respect that that's your opinion.  I don't understand it though.  We won one game.  They won the championship.  They had IW.  We didn't.  How are we better off?  You need to win now in order to recruit for the future.  Having good players and good teams now helps you recruit later. Not the other way around. Exhibit A for Lavin at STJ is Mo.  IW is at least as good as Mo was.  And he was poised to bring others with him as he did at SH, culminating in a championship.  This bodes very well for their recruiting going forward.  They just got a commitment  from a four star guard over the weekend, for example.  We didn't. It's easy to recruit from a position of strength.  We, on the other hand are in big trouble. We have two more wings to replace.  They will have to be better then the last wings. We also need a strong big.  These players don't grow on trees because if they did, everyone would have them.  IW was an All American.  We haven't had one of those in at least two decades.  That would have been really big for the program.

Now you say that cheating goes on all over the place.  Of course that's true.  My first thought about that is that it needs to stop, or at least slow down.  How would you accomplish that?  By saying, "oh well, it's very common", and do nothing?  No, the fact that cheating is so rampant makes it all the more important to crack down on it, or it will become even more rampant. If somebody violates a bylaw, action needs to be taken.  The same, of course, is true for society at large.  Otherwise what is the purpose of having the laws in the first place.

Personally I feel violated by what they did, and the fact that some "journalists" didn't do their research offends me further.  They reported that it was a "package deal", and that it was perfectly legal.  Well, both can't be true, because bylaw 11.4.1.1 prohibits them.

I admit I was angered at the time of their illegal recruiting activity two and a half years ago.  Them winning the championship has brought some of that anger back again.  Although I wouldn't characterize it as "getting in a tizzy" as you did.  This is not a technicality.  You just can't go around hiring people's high school coaches in package deals.  The rules just flat out prohibit it.  It's not a technicality.  It's a tactic used to snare recruits away from other coaches at the eleventh hour, who could then lose their jobs if they don't have back up plans.  Hardly a technicality.  I'm proud that our coaches didn't use those tactics.  And I'm ashamed of the Coach Jarvis regime for paying those players.  What a disgrace.

What I object to on JJ is the fact that people "called me out" personally.  Attacked me personally on this issue.  You should never do that.  Just say why you disagree and we'd all benefit from hearing another perspective.  One poster said I didn't know what was talking about. Others a little worse. (It's easy online because the internet creates distance and anonymity). But then when the rule was subsequently found, no mea culpas.  Just more personal attacks. Tedious!  [ Why are we still talking about this] they said? Well, because you said I didn't know what I was talking about. That's why.

Someone used illegal recruiting tactics to steal an All American from us.  We won one game and they won the championship.  THAT is a big deal.  Not a mundane issue as some have suggested.

Mo is better than Whitehead. There is a reason Whitehead is projected as a mid 2nd round pick and Mo was picked 15th after his freshman year. Whitehead could develop into a 15-20 pick at best. But Mo started out as that. And yes, Whitehead would've been a big get for us, a BIG get. But with Lavin's history of underachieving and giving his players leeway, I think Whitehead would've turned out a lot like Rysheed did. According to ESPN's basketball recruiting page, Jordan was ranked #17 and was a 5 star recruit. Whitehead was ranked #14 and a 5 star recruit. Granted I would've loved to see a team of White, Jordan, Obekpa, Dom, and I guess Jones at SF with D'Lo and Greene off the bench. That' could've been huge and would've insured Lavin's job and that team could've developed into something. Or Whitehead and Jordan could've clashed, one could've transferred, Obekpa would've still smoked weed, and it could've blown up and set our program back just as much as not getting him. You don't know what it would've done. And I'm assuming the guard you are referring to is Myles Powell? The 79th recruit according to ESPN. I'd advise you to look further up that list to number 36. There should be a kid named Shamorie Ponds there. So we do have a 4 star guard coming who is 33 spots ahead of the kid Seton Hall just got, is slightly smaller by an inch and plays the same position (combo guard). Just because they got it over the weekend during their biggest run in the last 30 years, we still got a better recruit despite having the worst team in conference history (or at least just school history.) We also have Freudenberg who is considered by many to be a top 75 player if he were American. And Bashir Ahmed who is also considered to be a top 100. We just had our worst season in the history of our program and arguably the conference's history and we STILL got better recruits than they did. 247 sports has Ponds as I believe 51. They have Myles Powell as 90. So ESPN has our guy 33 spots higher, and 247 sports has our guy 39 spots higher. Their guy is also just 12 spots ahead of Freudenberg according to 247 sports.

I get it you're angry and that's fine. You're right, people shouldn't act like that. But some people act like that. You can't change that. It was wrong of them to attack you but why take such offense to it? It's some guy talking through a keyboard. That's all they are to you, so why does it matter so much what they say?

Clearly we aren't going to get as mad about it as you are. It's been a year. Yes, it's unfair. But the only way it's going to be affected is if people start stealing recruits from Kentucky, North Carolina, etc that way because then they will complain about it but it will only affect those small schools that steal the players. As it stands right now, nothing will ever happen to the big schools that do this and killing the small schools damages the sport. Think about it, what's the penalty for Seton Hall? Loss of scholarships? Post-season ban for a year? Now we have a deadweight program on our conference's hands for the next two years at least. And it's not an established and elite basketball program so it's likely going to kill the school for at least a decade.

I don't see why this wouldn't make anybody furious.

It does not make me furious because I have a woman and a bong and a bottle of Ketel One. Okay, half a bottle. But tomorrow I'll have a full bottle. But that's just the circle of life.

I agree with you re SH. Probably they cheated. In the same way that DoOk cheated getting Boozer and Duhon and whoever else. And the same way that all those other program cheated getting all those other recruits. It's your outrage that is hard to understand. This is the way college BB works. Larry Brown won a NC hiring Danny Manning's father. There's a long list. This shit happens. Which is why this selective outrage is misplaced. If Willard hired Tiny to get Whitehead and that resulted in Lavin getting fired they should hand Willard's jersey in the rafters in Carnesecca Arena.
 

Lost in this SH rhetoric is that they stunk for 5 of Willard's 6 years.  Obviously it's on a better trajectory today than it ever has been, but I'm pretty sure Willard is not a good coach.  Can he build on this if Whitehead leaves? 

Lost in this SH rhetoric is that they stunk for 5 of Willard's 6 years.  Obviously it's on a better trajectory today than it ever has been, but I'm pretty sure Willard is not a good coach.  Can he build on this if Whitehead leaves? 

Maybe he'll parlay the success of this one season (or this season and next if everybody stays) to get another job that pays way more than SHU does

Quote from: WillieG on March 13, 2016, 07:54:53 PM

I don't see why this wouldn't make anybody furious.

It does not make me furious because I have a woman and a bong and a bottle of Ketel One. Okay, half a bottle. But tomorrow I'll have a full bottle. But that's just the circle of life.

I agree with you re SH. Probably they cheated. In the same way that DoOk cheated getting Boozer and Duhon and whoever else. And the same way that all those other program cheated getting all those other recruits. It's your outrage that is hard to understand. This is the way college BB works. Larry Brown won a NC hiring Danny Manning's father. There's a long list. This shit happens. Which is why this selective outrage is misplaced. If Willard hired Tiny to get Whitehead and that resulted in Lavin getting fired they should hand Willard's jersey in the rafters in Carnesecca Arena.

Hilarious point about Willard's jersey hanging in the rafters and literally almost true.  As brutal as it is to watch Lavin coached teams, I would still take him coaching those guys (IW et al) over what I witnessed this year.  Who knows though, maybe by year three these guys that we have now will have us winning again.  We'll see.

As far as Brown winning with the Mannings, that is perfectly legal.  You can hire a players coach if he is a parent.  Journalists have equated these cases but they are wrong.  There is a distinction here because Tiny is not IW's parent.  I can't be outraged about every instance of cheating in college athletics, although intellectually I wish it would go away. I can't help but be outraged when someone does it to us.

I wasn't aware that Doook cheated to get Boozer.  What happened there?  Soook ducks!

Quote from: Foad on March 15, 2016, 05:04:18 PM

Quote from: WillieG on March 13, 2016, 07:54:53 PM

I don't see why this wouldn't make anybody furious.

It does not make me furious because I have a woman and a bong and a bottle of Ketel One. Okay, half a bottle. But tomorrow I'll have a full bottle. But that's just the circle of life.

I agree with you re SH. Probably they cheated. In the same way that DoOk cheated getting Boozer and Duhon and whoever else. And the same way that all those other program cheated getting all those other recruits. It's your outrage that is hard to understand. This is the way college BB works. Larry Brown won a NC hiring Danny Manning's father. There's a long list. This shit happens. Which is why this selective outrage is misplaced. If Willard hired Tiny to get Whitehead and that resulted in Lavin getting fired they should hand Willard's jersey in the rafters in Carnesecca Arena.

Hilarious point about Willard's jersey hanging in the rafters and literally almost true.  As brutal as it is to watch Lavin coached teams, I would still take him coaching those guys (IW et al) over what I witnessed this year.  Who knows though, maybe by year three these guys that we have now will have us winning again.  We'll see.

As far as Brown winning with the Mannings, that is perfectly legal.  You can hire a players coach if he is a parent.  Journalists have equated these cases but they are wrong.  There is a distinction here because Tiny is not IW's parent.  I can't be outraged about every instance of cheating in college athletics, although intellectually I wish it would go away. I can't help but be outraged when someone does it to us.

I wasn't aware that Doook cheated to get Boozer.  What happened there?  Soook ducks!

As far as this year goes, this year did not matter.

Boozer's father was hired at Glaxo when Carlos signed  and was dismissed then Carlos declared for the NBA draft. Duhon's mother was given a job at the same company. These facts are well known. There is a long list of this sort of corruption.

What is also well known is that the NCAA is a corrupt organization that suckles at the teat of college basketball to the tune of billions of dollars a year. Getting exercised about Kevin Willard taking  advantage of the situation that exists in college BB without regard to the institutional corruption that exists in college BB seems to me to be missing the forest for the trees.   

Legal and genius according to Willard..
http://nypost.com/2016/03/15/how-seton-hall-wooed-program-saving-version-of-fab-five/

St. John's hired Moe Hicks to get inroads in NYC. That didn't work out so good.

St. John's hired Moe Hicks to get inroads in NYC. That didn't work out so good.

Not only did it not help, it was actually a hindrance.

http://espn.go.com/newyork/ncb/news/story?id=6642120

The Whitehead thing still gets me angry. That is such a cheap move to hire a high school coach to get a recruit in a package deal.  No Whitehead, Seton Hall is dead right now.  Really shocked they were not in violation of NCAA considering all the crap that usually is. They allow that to happen yet they give us problems with Orlando and we need Shabazz lawyer.

Even if Whitehead never came to us and came to SH anyway the fact that this was such a huge factor is disgusting. They should forbid HS coaches from taking job on commits staff for at least 2 years upon player committing.

Quote from: WillieG on March 13, 2016, 07:54:53 PM

I don't see why this wouldn't make anybody furious.

It does not make me furious because I have a woman and a bong and a bottle of Ketel One. Okay, half a bottle. But tomorrow I'll have a full bottle. But that's just the circle of life.

I agree with you re SH. Probably they cheated. In the same way that DoOk cheated getting Boozer and Duhon and whoever else. And the same way that all those other program cheated getting all those other recruits. It's your outrage that is hard to understand. This is the way college BB works. Larry Brown won a NC hiring Danny Manning's father. There's a long list. This shit happens. Which is why this selective outrage is misplaced. If Willard hired Tiny to get Whitehead and that resulted in Lavin getting fired they should hand Willard's jersey in the rafters in Carnesecca Arena.
 

Agree & not too many high major programs don't cheat. The system is what it is.

Lost in this SH rhetoric is that they stunk for 5 of Willard's 6 years.  Obviously it's on a better trajectory today than it ever has been, but I'm pretty sure Willard is not a good coach.  Can he build on this if Whitehead leaves? 

Exactly. SH stunk for a few years and still landed IW and others. Those who are saying we need to win next year to land recruits don't have a clue about recruiting.

SJU handed out plentyyyyyy of package deals the last 5 years:

-Marco Bourgeault to get Orlando Sanchez
-Felix Balamou to get Chris Obekpa
-Max Hooper to keep Jakarr Sampson strong
-Had a verbal commitment from Dom Pointer's HS teammate, Dwight Meikle

Also remember that we had a former staff member rendezvousing in a Greenburgh parking lot to pick up a fake academic transcript

And when 100 college basketball coaches were polled on the dirtiest recruitments of the past decade, we had 4 of our committments appear on this list of only 24 total players (Obekpa, Jakarr, Norvel Pelle and Jevon Thomas). 

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/19865011/critical-coaches-which-player-had-the-dirtiest-recruitment

So those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, particularly those that choose to defend the former coach that the all the above happened under

I personally don't really care that much what coaches do to get players, especially if its our coaches.  Just be smart enough to not get caught or embarrass the program.

Marco, max, and Felix weren't worth it. We should have taken tiny.