Game 13: Seton Hall

Bottom line is the call is not the reason for the loss. We collapsed. It’s on the team and the staff. Win on Tuesday.

Bottom line is the call is not the reason for the loss.

If the referees had made the correct call (or more reasonable no call at all) do you think Seton Hall would have won? If so, then your statement is true. If not, the call is the reason for the loss. There are reasons why the game was close enough for the call to matter, but they don't minimize the egregiousness of what happened.

I believe the referee did blow his whistle to correct a timing issue and not because he was mistakenly ruling LJ out of bounds. He went up with his hand to stop the clock but never pointed direction as you would for an out of bounds violation.

If what you say is true, why'd they move the spot of the in-bound pass from the base line to the sideline where LJF was?

Was drunk called JJ last night said the refs should’ve been taken out in fcking cuffs!

Bottom line is the call is not the reason for the loss. We collapsed. It’s on the team and the staff. Win on Tuesday.

Bottom line is that a bad call directly impacted the result of a game. This wasn’t some questionable shooting foul or charge/block issue.

If the referees had made the correct call (or more reasonable no call at all) do you think Seton Hall would have won? If so, then your statement is true. If not, the call is the reason for the loss. There are reasons why the game was close enough for the call to matter, but they don't minimize the egregiousness of what happened.

Two separate issues. The call was egregious yes, but one can only speculate what could have happened if the call went our way. We could have very well still lost. The call in and of itself did not change the score, our inability to stop SHU from scoring is what changed the score If we played defense and execute on offense we win, even after the bad call. As coaches that is what you tell your team. Leave the “blame the refs for the loss” for the fans. Team was in position to win the game and they failed to execute.

Bottom line is that a bad call directly impacted the result of a game. This wasn’t some questionable shooting foul or charge/block issue.

The call didn’t change the score, we could have still won had we executed. Stop them from scoring, execute on offense, we win.

If what you say is true, why'd they move the spot of the in-bound pass from the base line to the sideline where LJF was?

Because the inadvertent whistle was blown right before or as LJ was touching the ball just outside the sideline.

Following an inadvertent whistle, play is commonly resumed at the point of interruption.
i.e. a) A thow-in to the team that was in control at a designated spot nearest to where the ball was located when the stoppage occurred.

So, the inbound was correctly/tragically moved from the baseline to the sideline.

The call was egregious yes, but one can only speculate what could have happened if the call went our way. 

Bull. Gil Scott had the ball in the clear and was off to the races with only 3 seconds remaining on the clock. No speculation.

As already said, was the call horrible? Yes.

However that game was lost because the Johnnies failed to capitalize on numerous opportunities to create more separation before the awful call. Huge missed FT's in the last minute, Ponds not showing up down the stretch, and so on.

Two separate issues. The call was egregious yes, but one can only speculate what could have happened if the call went our way. We could have very well still lost.

It would have been pretty hard. Heron had possession moving towards the SJ basket and every Seton Hall player was behind him. I mean sure, he could have turned around and banged a three for Seton Hall, but it's pretty likely he'd have dribbled around and run out the clock.

The call in and of itself did not change the score, our inability to stop SHU from scoring is what changed the score If we played defense and execute on offense we win, even after the bad call. As coaches that is what you tell your team. Leave the “blame the refs for the loss” for the fans.

Okay well I'm a fan not a coach. (And evidently I'm the only one here who isn't except dopey Carmine and he's a referee.) So not having a team to tell things to what I'm telling you is that absent that blown whistle St John's wins that game barring an act of God. If your hot take is that they missed some free throws and took a few bad shots and if they hadn't they'd have won that's fine but that hot take applies to pretty much every game played, that is, if the team that lost had played better they'd have won.

Team was in position to win the game and they failed to execute.

No, they didn't fail to execute, they executed perfectly: LJF stole the ball and passed it to Heron and Michael Stephens gave the ball back to Seton Hall and said here try again.

Bull. Gil Scott had the ball in the clear and was off to the races with only 3 seconds remaining on the clock.

We had the lead with 3 seconds left, get a stop. Simon didn’t switch. That caused the defense to break down. If that happens we probably win, they had nowhere to go with the ball. Instead they get a wide open look. We didn’t execute, not the refs fault. Learn from it and get a win on Tuesday.

It would have been pretty hard. Heron had possession moving towards the SJ basket and every Seton Hall player was behind him. I mean sure, he could have turned around and banged a three for Seton Hall, but it's pretty likely he'd have dribbled around and run out the clock.


Okay well I'm a fan not a coach. (And evidently I'm the only one here who isn't except dopey Carmine and he's a referee.) So not having a team to tell things to what I'm telling you is that absent that blown whistle St John's wins that game barring an act of God. If your hot take is that they missed some free throws and took a few bad shots and if they hadn't they'd have won that's fine but that hot take applies to pretty much every game played, that is, if the team that lost had played better they'd have won.

No, they didn't fail to execute, they executed perfectly: LJF stole the ball and passed it to Heron and Michael Stephens gave the ball back to Seton Hall and said here try again.

Ok yes we would have won if the correct call was made, but it’s not why we lost, we still had the lead. If we execute on defense we still win. Why not focus on what we could control rather than not.

We had the lead with 3 seconds left, get a stop. Simon didn’t switch. That caused the defense to break down. If that happens we probably win, they had nowhere to go with the ball. Instead they get a wide open look. We didn’t execute, not the refs fault. Learn from it and get a win on Tuesday.

...But we did execute by securing a steal

Because the inadvertent whistle was blown right before or as LJ was touching the ball just outside the sideline.

Following an inadvertent whistle, play is commonly resumed at the point of interruption.
i.e. a) A thow-in to the team that was in control at a designated spot nearest to where the ball was located when the stoppage occurred.

So, the inbound was correctly/tragically moved from the baseline to the sideline.

It wasn't an inadvertent whistle, you said so yourself - "I believe the referee did blow his whistle to correct a timing issue" - and the league said the same thing. If you're wrong - and you usually are - and Stu Jackson is telling the truth - and of course he isn't - then SH should have had the ball on the base line. Very clearly what happened was that Michael Stephens - who on his best night is a horrible referee - blew the whistle based on the assumption that LJF was going to step out of bounds and that's what they told Mullin, that he stepped out of bounds - that's why Mullin didn't scream bloody murder about the clock nonsense, which he would have, because he couldn't see the opposite sideline from where he was and he didn't assume they were lying - and they gave SH the ball near where LJF went would have gone out of bounds had he, which he didn't.

...But we did execute by securing a steal

So you can focus on a play that didn’t count and I’ll focus on the play that did count. We allowed a wide open 3 with 3 seconds remaining because our defense broke down. Clean it up, get better, and get some wins. We weren’t going undefeated in conference play.

Ok yes we would have won if the correct call was made, but it’s not why we lost, we still had the lead. If we execute on defense we still win. Why not focus on what we could control rather than not.

I'm tired of beating this dead horse because this is just another variation of the if they'd played better than the team that beat them they'd have won trope but but for the bad call they wouldn't have been on defense, so they wouldn't have had to execute. And as for that, if Kevin Willard with three seconds left called a play that comprised passing the ball in to some seven foot lummox (who looked to me like he took several steps before his first dribble, which notice I'm not whining about that) and having him pass to a walk on for a buzzer three, then certainly SJ's poor execution failed to stop that fiendishly well designed play. Except that's not what happened. What happened was that the fifth option made a play, the first four options having been thwarted.

I'm tired of beating this dead horse because this is just another variation of the if they'd played better than the team that beat them they'd have won trope but but for the bad call they wouldn't have been on defense, so they wouldn't have had to execute. And as for that, if Kevin Willard with three seconds left called a play that comprised passing the ball in to some seven foot lummox (who looked to me like he took several steps before his first dribble, which notice I'm not whining about that) and having him pass to a walk on for a buzzer three, then certainly SJ's poor execution failed to stop that fiendishly well designed play. Except that's not what happened. What happened was that the fifth option made a play, the first four options having been thwarted.

Exactly. I agree completely.

I am a lot put off by the locker room talk that we lost the game on the court. I didn't put a jock on last night and neither did anyone typing messages here. I, we, didn't lose on the court, the game was stolen from us. Save the locker room motivation for those that played cause that's what they always say in the movies. I wasn't at the movies and I didn't play in the game.  I was humped by a bad call. There is no other way to look at it.  I feel worse today than I did after we lost on Saturday night in Lexington KY. in March '85. We weren't lied to and we weren't screwed. We lost it on the court. Last night we didn't

It wasn't an inadvertent whistle, you said so yourself - "I believe the referee did blow his whistle to correct a timing issue" - and the league said the same thing. If you're wrong - and you usually are - and Stu Jackson is telling the truth - and of course he isn't - then SH should have had the ball on the base line. Very clearly what happened was that Michael Stephens - who on his best night is a horrible referee - blew the whistle based on the assumption that LJF was going to step out of bounds and that's what they told Mullin, that he stepped out of bounds - that's why Mullin didn't scream bloody murder about the clock nonsense, which he would have, because he couldn't see the opposite sideline from where he was and he didn't assume they were lying - and they gave SH the ball near where LJF went would have gone out of bounds had he, which he didn't.

I'm calling it an inadvertent whistle because by rule he shouldn't have corrected the timing issue until the ball was dead.  There was no valid reason for him to blow the whistle there.  Mistake/Inadvertent.  I can't see any scenario in which the ball should have gone back to a baseline inbound play for Seton Hall. You can't just wipe away the action that occurred between 3.9 and 3.1 and you can't just have a do over.

My live take like everyone else was that he assumed the ball was going out of bounds and was surprised by LJ's great athletic play and blew it dead too early.  I was thinking perhaps he's also a soccer referee and used to the ball being out as soon as it crosses the plain of the sideline, had a brain aneurism and called it that way. I think I once made this same mistake late in a tight championship game. I was lucky my gaffe had no affect on the outcome.

After watching this different angle of it many times, I'm pretty sure my take is accurate. 

P.S. I'm not Dopey.  I'm inebriated.