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Staff Evaluation

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Foad

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Re: Staff Evaluation
« Reply #80 on: January 22, 2016, 08:59:56 PM »
Quote from: Tha Kid on January 22, 2016, 05:41:34 PM
Quote from: TONYD3 on January 22, 2016, 05:29:25 PM
But he always recruited and his teams were never awful.

Lavin's final UCLA team went 10-19.  His final St. John's team would have had a similar record, had we not hired Mullin to replace him.

The 2012 team was one of the best 13-19 teams ever to trod the boards.
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Marillac

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Re: Staff Evaluation
« Reply #81 on: January 23, 2016, 12:58:13 AM »
Quote from: ras on January 22, 2016, 04:50:12 PM
Quote from: Poison on January 22, 2016, 03:34:04 PM
Quote from: TONYD3 on January 22, 2016, 03:21:20 PM
We took a bunch of steps back starting over with Mullin. I seem to be the only one who wished we didn't do it. I hope am I wrong. I believe we would be further along this year and next if Lavin stayed. i believe he would have gotten similar talent that Mullin has. Of course the nonsense would have most likely continued. I really enjoyed the last 5 years, however disappointing.

This awful season makes sense to me if Mullin is better. Instead of a dis pointing 5/6 place regular season we finish in to top 3/4. Especially when we have talent. Harrison and pointer were amazing talents . For this big east they should have done more. Hopefully ponds, Ahmed, and Lovett are similar. Just more successful.
The big east semis are an awesome event I expect that we are there year 3 of the Mullin era and most years after that. I expect to win NCAA games. My hope is tha Mullin is much better then Lavin.  I am not sold that he is, YET

Lavin wasn't Norm Roberts. I think that is in large part why some of us liked him, and why some of us are upset now. But being better than Norm shouldn't be the bar that St.John's sets its standard to. It's one thing to accept a first NCAA tournament exit. It's another to clearly establish that as your only goal.

The biggest problem with Lavin is that his teams, and the program never had an identity. If you were a top recruit, you bought into his speeches. You had no idea what kind of offense he would run, or what kind of defense they would play, because he didn't know.

Mullin is learning how to coach. And he may become a great coach one day. I was against hiring someone without coaching experience, at first, but he's our coach now, much like in 2004 Norm was our coach, whether we liked it or not. We can get on board and support him, or we can be miserable while he learns when to call a TO during a 12-0 run by Incarnate Word, and when not to.

We've been through lot of coaches since Lou Carnesecca retired. No one has had consistent success. Mullin is a different story for many reasons. Some good, and some bad. To his credit, and his staff's credit, there are two local talents committed to play for St.John's next season. Mullin was brought here to bring the NY back to St.John's. That's a good start, because it seems like Mullin, but recruiting locally, is trying to establish what kind of team he's trying to build. Now, recruits can see what they're signing up with recruits like Ponds and Ahmed already committed. I would like to see the players get after it more, but we should all see that we're seeing more of an effort now than we did in November.

It's impossible to judge a coach that doesn't have a BE, or even D1 player for every position. The thing is, the same was true for Norm Roberts when he was forced to start Hill, Lawrence, Jackson, Gray and Hamilton, and in fairness, Norm had a much bigger uphill climb than Mullin does now.
Norm had a bigger uphill climb than Mullin

His climb was harder than Everest because he was a terrible coach. 
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desco80

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Re: Staff Evaluation
« Reply #82 on: January 24, 2016, 01:59:10 PM »
Poison is absolutely correct.
Being better than Norm isn't the goal.
Lavin got too much credit for simply being better than Norm.
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carmineabbatiello

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Re: Staff Evaluation
« Reply #83 on: January 24, 2016, 02:20:32 PM »
Quote from: desco80 on January 24, 2016, 01:59:10 PM
Lavin got too much credit for simply being better than Norm.

Lavin got credit for two Ncaa tournaments following a 10 year hiatus.

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Moose

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Re: Staff Evaluation
« Reply #84 on: January 24, 2016, 08:50:09 PM »
Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 24, 2016, 02:20:32 PM
Quote from: desco80 on January 24, 2016, 01:59:10 PM
Lavin got too much credit for simply being better than Norm.

Lavin got credit for two Ncaa tournaments following a 10 year hiatus.



And 3 appearances would still have him as coach. But he screwed that pooch
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 08:50:34 PM by Moose »
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cjfish

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Re: Staff Evaluation
« Reply #85 on: January 24, 2016, 09:20:58 PM »
lavin deserves minimal credit for taking Robert's team to the tourney, Roberts developed the team, taught them to  play together, Lavin was not the magic wand
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survivedc

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Re: Staff Evaluation
« Reply #86 on: January 24, 2016, 09:23:26 PM »
Quote from: cjfish on January 24, 2016, 09:20:58 PM
lavin deserves minimal credit for taking Robert's team to the tourney, Roberts developed the team, taught them to  play together, Lavin was not the magic wand

I feel like this topic is pretty well traveled. I'm of the opinion that Lavin came in and saw the talent that was being wasted in Hardy and Brownlee and found a way to use them. Its true he only brought in one person on that team, but he also deserves credit for bringing in Dunlap that season.
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TONYD3

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Re: Staff Evaluation
« Reply #87 on: January 24, 2016, 09:27:26 PM »
Quote from: cjfish on January 24, 2016, 09:20:58 PM
lavin deserves minimal credit for taking Robert's team to the tourney, Roberts developed the team, taught them to  play together, Lavin was not the magic wand
Sir I think u should use the google. Check out hardy vs Pitt, g-town, and Uconn. We also killed Duke. And won at Nova. That was all norm!
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cjfish

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Re: Staff Evaluation
« Reply #88 on: January 24, 2016, 09:33:39 PM »
If any credit is to be given re Lavin's first year it belongs to Dunlap
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Poison

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Re: Staff Evaluation
« Reply #89 on: January 24, 2016, 09:40:19 PM »
Quote from: cjfish on January 24, 2016, 09:20:58 PM
lavin deserves minimal credit for taking Robert's team to the tourney, Roberts developed the team, taught them to  play together, Lavin was not the magic wand

Why does Roberts deserve credit for that team? HE was the brains behind sitting Hardy and Brownlee on the bench - two of the best players we've had in the last 20 years. I don't understand how anyone could think that a coach as horrible as Roberts would have sniffed the NCAA tournament with that squad. The development was prevented by him, and only him.

That SOB is fired and all of the sudden 8 players who otherwise stunk were all of the sudden ballers. It's disgusting that he's even allowed to work as a coach in any capacity.
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redstorm212

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Re: Staff Evaluation
« Reply #90 on: January 24, 2016, 10:28:37 PM »
Quote from: cjfish on January 24, 2016, 09:20:58 PM
lavin deserves minimal credit for taking Robert's team to the tourney, Roberts developed the team, taught them to  play together, Lavin was not the magic wand

I can't sit back and take comments like this. That group as garbage. Most people on this board wanted them gone, couldn't wait until they left the university. Then Lavin takes over and they win 20+ games and take us on one of the best seasons this fan base has seen since the 90's. Lavin WAS the magic wand, I hate to break it to you. That team would not have beaten 7 top 15 teams under Norm Roberts, and if you think differently, you did not watch the same Norm Roberts coach, or the same team play as I did.

Excluding the cancer season:

21-12 (12-6)
17-14 (8-8)
20-13 (10-8)
21-12 (10-8)

81-53 (.604)

We fired that coach. After a decade of never reaching the NCAA tournament. Let those numbers sink in.

I'm happy that Mullin is the coach, I would be happy with either coach, but that decision still boggles my mind. This season isn't making it any easier on me.
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Marillac

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Re: Staff Evaluation
« Reply #91 on: January 24, 2016, 11:07:06 PM »
We need to stop living in the past.  Does it really matter who inherited the worst team? 

I think we'd all agree to be a good coach you and/or your staff need to do two things:  recruit at an acceptable level and coach at an acceptable level.  Norm did neither.  Lavin couldn't coach, but he could get highly ranked kids to play for St. John's.  That offered some of us (me included) a glimmer of hope that was not present at all during Norm's tenure. 

The guys that made the NCAA tournament in 2011 were not going anywhere under Norm.  Honestly, they probably weren't going anywhere under Lavin either if he didn't have Dunlap the magician draw up a defense so difficult announcers couldn't even describe it.  Dunlap saw how unique Hardy and Browlnee were and utilized them to hurt the opposition. 

We can pretend that Norm had that class getting better each year, but the facts say otherwise.  They were 5-13 in the Big East as freshman, 6-12 as sophs, and 6-12 again as juniors (with a top 75 four-year starter helping them as a 5th-year senior).  They weren't improving.  Think about how bad 6-12 in conference really is. 

I believe to be successful at St. John's, you have to be creative.  Lavin and Norm weren't.   The new staff has hit the JUCO market well, they've absolutely owned Europe, landed some transfers, and attracted some top 100 players as well.  The jury is still out on the overall coaching ability, but something tells me that Mullin and St. Jean will be exponentially better with coaching at the college level in two years than they are right now. 
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Johnnystar

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Re: Staff Evaluation
« Reply #92 on: January 25, 2016, 12:09:55 AM »
Honestly I don't even think we should have 7 wins. This team is so bad. Not because of the talent entirely but the team is so young. I love what the staff has done recruiting wise so far and as long as we pull in big recruits we will have something to work with. Mullin is a smart guy, he'll become a good coach. Happy with where everything is headed. DONT GET DISCOURAGED by this season cause we're going to continue to lose. Just expect it. Anything other than a loss is a nice bonus and the coaching staff is getting some experience in the meantime. Starting next year we will get some sort of a gauge even though the team will still be young-- we'll have some good players.
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Foad

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Re: Staff Evaluation
« Reply #93 on: January 25, 2016, 08:59:33 AM »
Quote from: redstorm212 on January 24, 2016, 10:28:37 PM
Lavin WAS the magic wand

Well clearly he was your magic wand anyway. Personally I still prefer spit and a little old fashioned elbow grease.

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Foad

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Re: Staff Evaluation
« Reply #94 on: January 25, 2016, 09:03:59 AM »
Quote from: Marillac on January 24, 2016, 11:07:06 PM
We need to stop living in the past. 

Norm
Lavin
Norm 
NCAA tournament in 2011
Norm
Lavin
Dunlap
Dunlap
Hardy and Browlnee 
Norm
5-13 as freshman,
6-12 as sophs
6-12 again as juniors
6-12 
Lavin
Norm. 
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survivedc

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Re: Staff Evaluation
« Reply #95 on: January 25, 2016, 03:01:05 PM »
Quote from: Marillac on January 24, 2016, 11:07:06 PM
I believe to be successful at St. John's, you have to be creative.  Lavin and Norm weren't.   The new staff has hit the JUCO market well, they've absolutely owned Europe, landed some transfers, and attracted some top 100 players as well.  The jury is still out on the overall coaching ability, but something tells me that Mullin and St. Jean will be exponentially better with coaching at the college level in two years than they are right now. 

Right, in addition to building a team of players, Mullin is learning how to coach. He obviously knows the game, but he is learning how to best communicate that knowledge. I'm sure he is trying some things and realizing they don't work and moving on to other ideas.
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redstorm212

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Re: Staff Evaluation
« Reply #96 on: January 25, 2016, 03:21:24 PM »
Quote from: Foad on January 25, 2016, 08:59:33 AM
Quote from: redstorm212 on January 24, 2016, 10:28:37 PM
Lavin WAS the magic wand

Well clearly he was your magic wand anyway. Personally I still prefer spit and a little old fashioned elbow grease.



Nice to finally understand why you were so fond of Norm.
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MCNPA

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Re: Staff Evaluation
« Reply #97 on: January 25, 2016, 05:21:05 PM »
Fwiw it's worth, I think the staff has done as well as humanly possible thus far with what they were given, which was nothing.  Hasn't been a year since they took over and while we aren't winning this season nor are we going to, we have a strong base in place.

To come in and recruit successfully with and entire new staff and very little history amongst recruits was a huge feat.  We certainly were not able to field a dynamic team right away, but staff did a great job of adding se excellent young talent like Lovett, Mussini, Yakwe, sima who are going to be excellent.  Add that to an excellent 2016 class and we are really rolling.

As far as basketball coaching, we have been as competitive as possible with lots of very good Big East teams considering the limitations of our roster.  We aren't losing games with coaching mistakes.  We are losing because we don't have all the pieces yet.  Injury to sima and Lovett's ineligibility really have killed us this season. 

Overall, I think future looks really, really bright.  Our young players are dynamic and we will have a huge infusion of young talent next season.  Probably add a grad transfer I'd hope as well to buffer our youth.  I don't have much to criticize with current staff.  One always looks at wins and losses, but we are in a total rebuild and I think most will see a much more talented and dynamic team next year with much more talent and depth.
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friendofjohnnie

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Re: Staff Evaluation
« Reply #98 on: January 25, 2016, 09:43:15 PM »
2011-2012 with  replacing cupboard.

Beat Notre Dame, Cincinnati, West Virginia, UCLA, Fordham
Close losses against Duke, Arizona, Texas A&M, and Villanova and hell even that 20 pt loss to that elite Kentucky team looks better than that embarrassment to Incarnate Word , NJIT, and Fordham this season.

Although, I was very close with the last staff and players I am willing to give Mullin some leeway this season considering the circumstances.  But one must ponder, in a rebuilding year with major conference worthy players no matter their inexperience, losses to those 3 teams are inexusable. At least make those games close but they werent. Next years season is make or break for this staff. Lets hope Lovett and the rumored ones thrive here. Also I am a firm believer Sampson would have made a huge impact here-we should have found a way to keep him.



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ras

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Re: Staff Evaluation
« Reply #99 on: January 25, 2016, 10:30:27 PM »
Interesting point. But Lavin had time to recruit those players. By the time Mullin was hired most recruits had already committed. But I agree. Next year we have to be significantly better.
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