Providence Game Discussion

Understood, Poison.  I get that viewpoint.  My issue is that Lavin should have never been in this predicament to begin with.  After some of the early success on the recruiting front, and even the year we won 20 but didn't make the tourney, Lavin and staff were in a much better position than Norm.  Yet even Norm found guys like Brownlee and Hardy late in his tenure.  Lavin and staff did nothing.  Had they recruited the past 2 years with the some fervor as the first few, this would have been a non-issue and no one would hold him in ill regard. 

If, in 4 years, Mullin & Co. are basically pulling together an ENTIRE roster come March, I'll be happy to take issue with them.  Like I said, anyone familiar with my posts knows that I was a huge Lavin supporter and gave him every benefit of the doubt.  But his falling asleep at the wheel for the past 2 years is inexcusable.  And, yes, I consider putting all of your eggs in a few baskets falling asleep at the wheel, because we aren't a school that can consistently land those type of kids right now without making sure we have solid backup options.

Quote from: prjohnnies on January 03, 2016, 08:05:29 PM

Wait, are you saying the current roster isn't Lavin's fault?  Who else's fault can it be?  Mullin wasn't hired until March, the assistants after.  Are you actually saying that they deserve more blame than Lavin?  That is insane. You can start pointing the fingers next year, or, more fairly, the year after, on this staff's roster construction.  This season is all on our ex coach. No staff can be legitimately expected to assemble an entire roster in the late spring/early roster. The fact that we got some of the guys we landed is a miracle.

Quote from: Poison on January 03, 2016, 07:30:13 PM

Quote from: Moose on January 03, 2016, 07:27:09 PM

Quote from: TONYD3 on January 03, 2016, 06:22:02 PM

We are 3 years from having the possibility of having a top recruiting class and losing in the first round MAYBE! I think some of you like losing.

And we would be in the same place with your buddy too.

Maybe, but Lavin was coming off back to back 20 win seasons. We don't get to blame Lavin for what he isn't here to work with. What we have now, is our own fault. Every ounce of it.

What I'm saying is that he was fired before he had a chance to finish his roster for this season. It's not fair to credit Mullin with putting together this wonderful 7-8 shitbox of a team, without also acknowledging that Lavin didn't have the spring and summer add players. A period, that he has been successful with in the past.

We don't know if Lavin would have landed Mussini and also retained Sampson. We don't know if Obekpa would have stuck around. And I guess I'm in the minority in wanting him back. I think he would have great this year.

Quote from: Moose on January 03, 2016, 08:51:42 PM

Quote from: Poison on January 03, 2016, 08:44:32 PM

Quote from: prjohnnies on January 03, 2016, 08:05:29 PM

Wait, are you saying the current roster isn't Lavin's fault?  Who else's fault can it be?  Mullin wasn't hired until March, the assistants after.  Are you actually saying that they deserve more blame than Lavin?  That is insane. You can start pointing the fingers next year, or, more fairly, the year after, on this staff's roster construction.  This season is all on our ex coach. No staff can be legitimately expected to assemble an entire roster in the late spring/early roster. The fact that we got some of the guys we landed is a miracle.

Quote from: Poison on January 03, 2016, 07:30:13 PM

Quote from: Moose on January 03, 2016, 07:27:09 PM

Quote from: TONYD3 on January 03, 2016, 06:22:02 PM

We are 3 years from having the possibility of having a top recruiting class and losing in the first round MAYBE! I think some of you like losing.

And we would be in the same place with your buddy too.

Maybe, but Lavin was coming off back to back 20 win seasons. We don't get to blame Lavin for what he isn't here to work with. What we have now, is our own fault. Every ounce of it.

What I'm saying is that he was fired before he had a chance to finish his roster for this season. It's not fair to credit Mullin with putting together this wonderful 7-8 shitbox of a team, without also acknowledging that Lavin didn't have the spring and summer add players. A period, that he has been successful with in the past.

We don't know if Lavin would have landed Mussini and also retained Sampson. We don't know if Obekpa would have stuck around. And I guess I'm in the minority in wanting him back. I think he would have great this year.

Great? Grabbing guys like Amar and ADR late in the game is hardly great.

Mussini would have likely been here yes. Jordan was flunking out. Obekpa was 50-50 at best and if he did return likely would have been suspended for his cloud of smoke. Yes chatter is Diallo would have been here if Lavin was here. But would he have gotten eligible since we are not as proactive as Kansas in pushing for answers from NCAA?  He might have very well garnered a top 10 class again. Just like he did for his 2nd year. But no guarantee we would haven't the same issue that Lavin fans pointed out above that there were so many defections that's why it took 4 years to dance.

I never said like Amar and ADR was great. I said that i expected Obekpa to be great, and he improved quite a bit last year, so that's not really so absurd.

To clarify you said successful in the late recruiting periods. That was the point I was refuting. I used those two as examples I know you didn't say them specifically. The best two players he got late were head cases as well.

Understood, Poison.  I get that viewpoint.  My issue is that Lavin should have never been in this predicament to begin with.  After some of the early success on the recruiting front, and even the year we won 20 but didn't make the tourney, Lavin and staff were in a much better position than Norm.  Yet even Norm found guys like Brownlee and Hardy late in his tenure.  Lavin and staff did nothing.  Had they recruited the past 2 years with the some fervor as the first few, this would have been a non-issue and no one would hold him in ill regard. 

If, in 4 years, Mullin & Co. are basically pulling together an ENTIRE roster come March, I'll be happy to take issue with them.  Like I said, anyone familiar with my posts knows that I was a huge Lavin supporter and gave him every benefit of the doubt.  But his falling asleep at the wheel for the past 2 years is inexcusable.  And, yes, I consider putting all of your eggs in a few baskets falling asleep at the wheel, because we aren't a school that can consistently land those type of kids right now without making sure we have solid backup options.

Quote from: Poison on January 03, 2016, 08:44:32 PM

Quote from: prjohnnies on January 03, 2016, 08:05:29 PM

Wait, are you saying the current roster isn't Lavin's fault?  Who else's fault can it be?  Mullin wasn't hired until March, the assistants after.  Are you actually saying that they deserve more blame than Lavin?  That is insane. You can start pointing the fingers next year, or, more fairly, the year after, on this staff's roster construction.  This season is all on our ex coach. No staff can be legitimately expected to assemble an entire roster in the late spring/early roster. The fact that we got some of the guys we landed is a miracle.

Quote from: Poison on January 03, 2016, 07:30:13 PM

Quote from: Moose on January 03, 2016, 07:27:09 PM

Quote from: TONYD3 on January 03, 2016, 06:22:02 PM

We are 3 years from having the possibility of having a top recruiting class and losing in the first round MAYBE! I think some of you like losing.

And we would be in the same place with your buddy too.

Maybe, but Lavin was coming off back to back 20 win seasons. We don't get to blame Lavin for what he isn't here to work with. What we have now, is our own fault. Every ounce of it.

What I'm saying is that he was fired before he had a chance to finish his roster for this season. It's not fair to credit Mullin with putting together this wonderful 7-8 shitbox of a team, without also acknowledging that Lavin didn't have the spring and summer add players. A period, that he has been successful with in the past.

We don't know if Lavin would have landed Mussini and also retained Sampson. We don't know if Obekpa would have stuck around. And I guess I'm in the minority in wanting him back. I think he would have great this year.

I agree that Lavin was careless toward the end. And really, overall. The current staff gets the same free pass that he did when Pelle, Sampson and Garrett somehow weren't eligible to play ball. And just to be clear, I'm not the biggest Lavin. I wanted him out as well. I just didn't want a coach who would be learning on the job. I wanted an up and coming head coach.

Lavin inherited a veteran team that his predecessor couldn't coach to their best.  Lavin got them to perform and make the NCAA's but the lopsided team of primarily seniors was not corrected in Lavin's first true recruiting year when he did nothing to correct our team "balance" problems by bringing in all frosh (not a bunch of 5 stars) and not bringing some balance by bringing in some JUCO's and transfers to balance the scholarship distribution.  There after it was difficult to recruit as there were 5 starters ahead of any potential recruits.  The current staff at least have tried to balance things.  Hopefully it works out. 

Good point. Also last years depth issues were inexcusable. He did,however, almost get Briscoe and you have to wonder who may have followed.

Lavin recruited too many guys who couldnt get onto, or stay on, the court.

Obekpa and Jordan were disasters that set us back.

He visited them, met their damiliea, talked to their coaches .... either he ignored the writing on the wall or thought too highly of his own mentoring ability.

Jay wright didnt recruit Jordan, a 5 star point guard in his own backyard.  We were blinded by excitement, but that shouldve been a huge red flag. 

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 03, 2016, 01:04:58 PM

Quote from: Foad on January 03, 2016, 09:50:08 AM

Agree with you about Patterson though, he was the worst. Thank goodness the great D'Angelo Harrison is now the all time leader in 3 pointers made in a season, it was a shame that that that other dope's name ever sullied the record books.

Second place ain't bad.  Plus the granted great 3'Lo only beat it once in 4 seasons.  The great Avery "single game three point record holder" Patterson only had one try.

The three pointer in college has been around like what, 40 seasons?  #2 is an accomplishment.

You're right about DJ2 however.  I think I'm gonna make him my Mfp.

If Patterson was so good why weren't there Big Ten and ACC programs lining up to receive him when he left STJ? Certainly, Maryland and Duke got a look good at what he could do.

That is hard to explain.  You would think the Longhorns would have at least wanted him.  Especially with Durand leaving.  Perhaps he had D1 transfer restrictions since it would have been his third team?   

At any rate,  he proved he was the real deal the following season in D2 when he hit like 80? 90? or 100? threes.  We all now know how strong the play can be in D2.  Remember Stac?

Because one can appreciate that Lavin helped restore the program, on the one hand, and, in the other, seemingly threw in the towel to start collecting pay checks a few years into his tenure, caring little about the state of the program.  That is he only logical explanation for the roster he left us with, which is far worse than what he inherited from Norm. 

I get your point but feel that it's unfair to fire a coach off of an Ncaa tournament appearance; in the midst of the recruiting period; than to complain that you don't like the roster you're left with. 

If Hollywood was still coaching and you didn't like the roster than the blame would obviously be with Lavin.  But you can't fault a coach for not recruiting after he's fired and there's no way to surmise what the roster would have looked like if he stayed.

It's just not that important either way.  Everyone's favorite athlete is the coach and we're all happy about it.  Let's learn to enjoy it in spite of the mounting defeats.

Quote from: Poison on January 03, 2016, 05:14:50 PM

Quote from: cjfish on January 03, 2016, 04:55:26 PM

It is easy to berate hairgel, fake tan boy.  His best team he inherited from the undeservedly maligned Norm, who developed them while Lavin took the credit.  He signed a great class and then had a hard time qualifying them )pelle Etc), lost Lindsey, coddled DLO, which worked, and Obekpa, who threw him in last year.  Recruited the Delarosa boys...nuff said...and tried to qualify Williams to cover his sorry ass when everyone else apparently thought his t-cript was a joke.  SNAKE OIL SALESMAN.  Never saw a team so new, except for perhaps Norms first team, his legacy.   How soon we forget....Norm inherited a team that was a mess, couldn't recruit because of the mess, and still developed some solid players. 

Undeservedly maligned Norm. You've got to be kidding that shit. Those kids wouldn't never achieved anything if that selfish prick was still coaching them. Norm wasn't nearly maligned enough. That dumb F had Brownlee buried on the bench, and he was too stupid to think of giving Hardy the ball. You can point to Lavin for his failures, but at least he had some success. Born accomplished nothing here. Absolutely nothing, and all of that is 100% on him.

Neither accomplished much. Barely getting an at large with  a top recruiting class as seniors and getting pounded in the 1st round  isn't much to hang your hat on.

We are St. Johns!  That's about as good as it gets.

Quote from: Marco Baldi on January 03, 2016, 05:20:11 PM

Quote from: Poison on January 03, 2016, 05:14:50 PM

Quote from: cjfish on January 03, 2016, 04:55:26 PM

It is easy to berate hairgel, fake tan boy.  His best team he inherited from the undeservedly maligned Norm, who developed them while Lavin took the credit.  He signed a great class and then had a hard time qualifying them )pelle Etc), lost Lindsey, coddled DLO, which worked, and Obekpa, who threw him in last year.  Recruited the Delarosa boys...nuff said...and tried to qualify Williams to cover his sorry ass when everyone else apparently thought his t-cript was a joke.  SNAKE OIL SALESMAN.  Never saw a team so new, except for perhaps Norms first team, his legacy.   How soon we forget....Norm inherited a team that was a mess, couldn't recruit because of the mess, and still developed some solid players. 

Undeservedly maligned Norm. You've got to be kidding that shit. Those kids wouldn't never achieved anything if that selfish prick was still coaching them. Norm wasn't nearly maligned enough. That dumb F had Brownlee buried on the bench, and he was too stupid to think of giving Hardy the ball. You can point to Lavin for his failures, but at least he had some success. Born accomplished nothing here. Absolutely nothing, and all of that is 100% on him.

Neither accomplished much. Barely getting an at large with  a top recruiting class as seniors and getting pounded in the 1st round  isn't much to hang your hat on.

We are St. Johns!  That's about as good as it gets.

So we cannot beButler and average 90 per game, and  be ranked in top 15 in less than 3 years? And expect to have a legit shot at a conference title?  Why not?

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 04, 2016, 12:35:21 AM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on January 03, 2016, 05:20:11 PM

Quote from: Poison on January 03, 2016, 05:14:50 PM

Quote from: cjfish on January 03, 2016, 04:55:26 PM

It is easy to berate hairgel, fake tan boy.  His best team he inherited from the undeservedly maligned Norm, who developed them while Lavin took the credit.  He signed a great class and then had a hard time qualifying them )pelle Etc), lost Lindsey, coddled DLO, which worked, and Obekpa, who threw him in last year.  Recruited the Delarosa boys...nuff said...and tried to qualify Williams to cover his sorry ass when everyone else apparently thought his t-cript was a joke.  SNAKE OIL SALESMAN.  Never saw a team so new, except for perhaps Norms first team, his legacy.   How soon we forget....Norm inherited a team that was a mess, couldn't recruit because of the mess, and still developed some solid players. 

Undeservedly maligned Norm. You've got to be kidding that shit. Those kids wouldn't never achieved anything if that selfish prick was still coaching them. Norm wasn't nearly maligned enough. That dumb F had Brownlee buried on the bench, and he was too stupid to think of giving Hardy the ball. You can point to Lavin for his failures, but at least he had some success. Born accomplished nothing here. Absolutely nothing, and all of that is 100% on him.

Neither accomplished much. Barely getting an at large with  a top recruiting class as seniors and getting pounded in the 1st round  isn't much to hang your hat on.

We are St. Johns!  That's about as good as it gets.

So we cannot beButler and average 90 per game, and  be ranked in top 15 in less than 3 years? And expect to have a legit shot at a conference title?  Why not?

Because we keep hiring flawed coaches, who never sustain their success.

Quote from: Poison on January 03, 2016, 01:23:34 PM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 03, 2016, 01:04:58 PM

Quote from: Foad on January 03, 2016, 09:50:08 AM

Agree with you about Patterson though, he was the worst. Thank goodness the great D'Angelo Harrison is now the all time leader in 3 pointers made in a season, it was a shame that that that other dope's name ever sullied the record books.

Second place ain't bad.  Plus the granted great 3'Lo only beat it once in 4 seasons.  The great Avery "single game three point record holder" Patterson only had one try.

The three pointer in college has been around like what, 40 seasons?  #2 is an accomplishment.

You're right about DJ2 however.  I think I'm gonna make him my Mfp.

If Patterson was so good why weren't there Big Ten and ACC programs lining up to receive him when he left STJ? Certainly, Maryland and Duke got a look good at what he could do.

That is hard to explain.  You would think the Longhorns would have at least wanted him.  Especially with Durand leaving.  Perhaps he had D1 transfer restrictions since it would have been his third team?   

At any rate,  he proved he was the real deal the following season in D2 when he hit like 80? 90? or 100? threes.  We all now know how strong the play can be in D2.  Remember Stac?

He could have replaced Kevin Durant. Thank you for that on this Monday morning.

He could have replaced Kevin Durant. Thank you for that on this Monday morning.

Patterson and Johnson both wear headbands and both shoot 32 percent from three. Coincidence?

Last player at SJU to wear a headband and not stink? Let's leave Yawke out of it. Does it go all the way back to Lamont Middleton?

Quote from: Poison on January 04, 2016, 08:19:28 AM

He could have replaced Kevin Durant. Thank you for that on this Monday morning.

Patterson and Johnson both wear headbands and both shoot 32 percent from three. Coincidence?

Last player at SJU to wear a headband and not stink? Let's leave Yawke out of it. Does it go all the way back to Lamont Middleton?

Marcus hatten

Quote from: Foad on January 04, 2016, 08:44:38 AM

Quote from: Poison on January 04, 2016, 08:19:28 AM

He could have replaced Kevin Durant. Thank you for that on this Monday morning.

Patterson and Johnson both wear headbands and both shoot 32 percent from three. Coincidence?

Last player at SJU to wear a headband and not stink? Let's leave Yawke out of it. Does it go all the way back to Lamont Middleton?

Marcus hatten

Good call. DJ Kennedy also it occurs to me.

Hatten was about a 32 percent three point shooter as well. I might be on to something. 

To his credit, Patterson looked like he was going to be as good as Hatten after he lit up Navy. But then Maryland came to town, and Darryl Strawberry's kid ate him alive.

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 04, 2016, 12:35:21 AM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on January 03, 2016, 05:20:11 PM

Quote from: Poison on January 03, 2016, 05:14:50 PM

Quote from: cjfish on January 03, 2016, 04:55:26 PM

It is easy to berate hairgel, fake tan boy.  His best team he inherited from the undeservedly maligned Norm, who developed them while Lavin took the credit.  He signed a great class and then had a hard time qualifying them )pelle Etc), lost Lindsey, coddled DLO, which worked, and Obekpa, who threw him in last year.  Recruited the Delarosa boys...nuff said...and tried to qualify Williams to cover his sorry ass when everyone else apparently thought his t-cript was a joke.  SNAKE OIL SALESMAN.  Never saw a team so new, except for perhaps Norms first team, his legacy.   How soon we forget....Norm inherited a team that was a mess, couldn't recruit because of the mess, and still developed some solid players. 

Undeservedly maligned Norm. You've got to be kidding that shit. Those kids wouldn't never achieved anything if that selfish prick was still coaching them. Norm wasn't nearly maligned enough. That dumb F had Brownlee buried on the bench, and he was too stupid to think of giving Hardy the ball. You can point to Lavin for his failures, but at least he had some success. Born accomplished nothing here. Absolutely nothing, and all of that is 100% on him.

Neither accomplished much. Barely getting an at large with  a top recruiting class as seniors and getting pounded in the 1st round  isn't much to hang your hat on.

We are St. Johns!  That's about as good as it gets.

So we cannot beButler and average 90 per game, and  be ranked in top 15 in less than 3 years? And expect to have a legit shot at a conference title?  Why not?

We could if we could just somehow lift this curse. 

As a sage bartender once told me; "Don't tell me what you are going to do...show me what you've done".

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 04, 2016, 12:21:04 AM

Quote from: Poison on January 03, 2016, 01:23:34 PM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 03, 2016, 01:04:58 PM

Quote from: Foad on January 03, 2016, 09:50:08 AM

Agree with you about Patterson though, he was the worst. Thank goodness the great D'Angelo Harrison is now the all time leader in 3 pointers made in a season, it was a shame that that that other dope's name ever sullied the record books.

Second place ain't bad.  Plus the granted great 3'Lo only beat it once in 4 seasons.  The great Avery "single game three point record holder" Patterson only had one try.

The three pointer in college has been around like what, 40 seasons?  #2 is an accomplishment.

You're right about DJ2 however.  I think I'm gonna make him my Mfp.

If Patterson was so good why weren't there Big Ten and ACC programs lining up to receive him when he left STJ? Certainly, Maryland and Duke got a look good at what he could do.

That is hard to explain.  You would think the Longhorns would have at least wanted him.  Especially with Durand leaving.  Perhaps he had D1 transfer restrictions since it would have been his third team?   

At any rate,  he proved he was the real deal the following season in D2 when he hit like 80? 90? or 100? threes.  We all now know how strong the play can be in D2.  Remember Stac?

He could have replaced Kevin Durant. Thank you for that on this Monday morning.

I just said that because I recall him having a big game in a close one against Texas.

Quote from: Poison on January 04, 2016, 08:19:28 AM

He could have replaced Kevin Durant. Thank you for that on this Monday morning.

Patterson and Johnson both wear headbands and both shoot 32 percent from three. Coincidence?

Last player at SJU to wear a headband and not stink? Let's leave Yawke out of it. Does it go all the way back to Lamont Middleton?

Avery was the best of them all at head band throwing.

Quote from: Poison on January 04, 2016, 08:19:28 AM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 04, 2016, 12:21:04 AM

Quote from: Poison on January 03, 2016, 01:23:34 PM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 03, 2016, 01:04:58 PM

Quote from: Foad on January 03, 2016, 09:50:08 AM

Agree with you about Patterson though, he was the worst. Thank goodness the great D'Angelo Harrison is now the all time leader in 3 pointers made in a season, it was a shame that that that other dope's name ever sullied the record books.

Second place ain't bad.  Plus the granted great 3'Lo only beat it once in 4 seasons.  The great Avery "single game three point record holder" Patterson only had one try.

The three pointer in college has been around like what, 40 seasons?  #2 is an accomplishment.

You're right about DJ2 however.  I think I'm gonna make him my Mfp.

If Patterson was so good why weren't there Big Ten and ACC programs lining up to receive him when he left STJ? Certainly, Maryland and Duke got a look good at what he could do.

That is hard to explain.  You would think the Longhorns would have at least wanted him.  Especially with Durand leaving.  Perhaps he had D1 transfer restrictions since it would have been his third team?   

At any rate,  he proved he was the real deal the following season in D2 when he hit like 80? 90? or 100? threes.  We all now know how strong the play can be in D2.  Remember Stac?

He could have replaced Kevin Durant. Thank you for that on this Monday morning.

I just said that because I recall him having a big game in a close one against Texas.

I know. I'm just messing with you. I remember that game well. Mason JR missed a three at the buzzer.

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 04, 2016, 12:37:42 PM

Quote from: Poison on January 04, 2016, 08:19:28 AM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 04, 2016, 12:21:04 AM

Quote from: Poison on January 03, 2016, 01:23:34 PM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 03, 2016, 01:04:58 PM

Quote from: Foad on January 03, 2016, 09:50:08 AM

Agree with you about Patterson though, he was the worst. Thank goodness the great D'Angelo Harrison is now the all time leader in 3 pointers made in a season, it was a shame that that that other dope's name ever sullied the record books.

Second place ain't bad.  Plus the granted great 3'Lo only beat it once in 4 seasons.  The great Avery "single game three point record holder" Patterson only had one try.

The three pointer in college has been around like what, 40 seasons?  #2 is an accomplishment.

You're right about DJ2 however.  I think I'm gonna make him my Mfp.

If Patterson was so good why weren't there Big Ten and ACC programs lining up to receive him when he left STJ? Certainly, Maryland and Duke got a look good at what he could do.

That is hard to explain.  You would think the Longhorns would have at least wanted him.  Especially with Durand leaving.  Perhaps he had D1 transfer restrictions since it would have been his third team?   

At any rate,  he proved he was the real deal the following season in D2 when he hit like 80? 90? or 100? threes.  We all now know how strong the play can be in D2.  Remember Stac?

He could have replaced Kevin Durant. Thank you for that on this Monday morning.

I just said that because I recall him having a big game in a close one against Texas.

I know. I'm just messing with you. I remember that game well. Mason JR missed a three at the buzzer.

You've got a good memory for these games.  To me it's just one giant, depressing blur.