Pelle, Sampson, Garrett Ruled Ineligible for Fall

Quote from: realfan on September 16, 2011, 10:24:07 PM

Quote from: Choz4Life on September 16, 2011, 04:33:10 PM

Quote from: pmg911 on September 16, 2011, 04:04:25 PM

Maybe one day America's minor-league basketball system wont have anytin to do wit institutions of higher learnin.

And then you will have even fewer young people today without opportunities to go to college and get a free education

And then you will have more young people being justly compensated for their talents like y'all free market advocates stress.

Cartman slave...I mean, student athlete owner

Slave???   Wow, now thats a new one.  If you call getting a free education at a high tuition school like St. John's being a slave then you must be smoking the funny stuff.  My daughter, who was a REAL STUDENT is still paying off her college loan.  I am sure she would have preferred to have been a so called slave.  Your post is way out of line pal.

I'm sure your daughter worked her way thru college - in addition to attending class.  And was paid for that work.    What if she'd had to work 60 hours a week at that job (in ADDITION  to her schoolwork as these kids are expected to) - year round (not just while school was in session) at something that earned the masters (school and NCAA) Millions of dollars, FOR WHICH SHE WASN'T PAID?   I'm betting if your daughter was say a business major, she was even free to take a job offered by some business taking advantage of her business acumen and education and getting paid for it.   While if these kids did something similar, they'd be banned from participating in  their area of expertise, likely even removed from the school.

I'm sorry if you feel cheated because your daughter had to pay and didn't get a full scholarship (by the way, please don't take offense, but if your daugher was one of the top 60 high school students in HER area of study IN THE ENTIRE WORLD, as these three kids are, and didn't obtain a full scholarship,  that would be on YOU - because full rides for that kind kind of top percentile prosect in EVERY field of study ARE availab.e   

Sorry, but I also resent that "Real Student" reference.  You mean unlike Sports or Music or theater majors (which I was)?  These are accredited fields of study, offered by literally thousands of colleges.   Subjects the majority of college students ("real students") WOULD FAIL MISERABLY AT.   I'm sorry to use your daughter as part of this response, but you brought her into it.  Tho obvioulsy I know nothing about her, the stats would say, these 3 kids would have a far better chance of succeeding in HER major, than she would have trying to pursue THEIRS.   

This issue is NOT cut and dried, and it is certainly NOT a "way out of line" subject for discussion.

First of all, lets get a reality check here.  If my daughter did work she never made more then a measly $10 an hour, surely not enough to pay off a $50,000 a year tuition. And no, I dont feel cheated at all.  Unlike many college athletes, who are pampered, and have everything given to them on a silver platter, tutors, etc.  she had to work for every thing she got, and I am glad she did.  Her success today may be attributed to the work ethic she acquired in those years.  And guess what, she was a D1 athlete to boot in the Patriot league where there is very little money given for college schlarships, and as a track person, she worked her butt off.

Secondly, my son earned a BFA and was one of the top, actually the top jazz saxophone player in the state of New York at the time of his HS graduation.  He was offered several schollie offers, but not full rides with tuition. room and board and he was top 2 or 3 in the nation at what he did, so your argument there is completely bogus.

I take issue with people who come on sites and make ridiculous statements about these "poor" schollie athletes who are being taken advantage of at universities. thats a load of crap.  For one, no one is forcing them to attend college and secondly, it is widely known that they dont have to function under the same rules that the rest of us do. The fact is, they are earning a good salary for what they are doing, get treated like royalty and get everything handed to them. Save your pity for the poor families with kids who get good grades but whose families cant afford to send them to a great school due to finances, there are plenty of stories like that around.

Ceilia Goldberg, the prep school’s director, confirmed that the players each took three summer classes there but said the N.C.A.A. had not notified the school why the students’ credits were not accepted. She said the school had had dealings with the N.C.A.A. before and never encountered this problem.

“Their parents contacted me yesterday, upset,” Goldberg said Friday in a telephone interview. “They said the N.C.A.A. is questioning why they received A’s. They’re making it seem like they’re not smart enough to do well.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/17/sports/ncaabasketball/3-st-johns-basketball-recruits-are-ruled-ineligible.html?_r=1&ref=sports

See my post above. I've evaluated many transcripts and three students whose eligibility is at question taking three courses each at the same school and getting A's in every single one of them (that's 9 - count em) raises a red flag in regard to the standards of the institution. I don't know if they took the same courses with the same teachers but that would make it even more suspect.

Quote from: SJUhoopNUT on September 17, 2011, 07:52:05 AM

Ceilia Goldberg, the prep school’s director, confirmed that the players each took three summer classes there but said the N.C.A.A. had not notified the school why the students’ credits were not accepted. She said the school had had dealings with the N.C.A.A. before and never encountered this problem.

“Their parents contacted me yesterday, upset,” Goldberg said Friday in a telephone interview. “They said the N.C.A.A. is questioning why they received A’s. They’re making it seem like they’re not smart enough to do well.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/17/sports/ncaabasketball/3-st-johns-basketball-recruits-are-ruled-ineligible.html?_r=1&ref=sports

See my post above. I've evaluated many transcripts and three students whose eligibility is at question taking three courses each at the same school and getting A's in every single one of them (that's 9 - count em) raises a red flag in regard to the standards of the institution. I don't know if they took the same courses with the same teachers but that would make it even more suspect.

Qcredman - Does the NCAA clearinghouse review the grades of all black students that get A's and puts those grades into suspicion or just those attending St. John's? The grades are what they are given any institution that grants those grades. If suspicious grades were the reason for denial of playing qualifications then the players have grounds for a lawsuit against the NCAA. A good legal team would question how so many football players in some high schools got some grades as the STARS at their schools!
 

If they earned the A, then what's the problem? If they didn't, we could have a world of problems.

Quote from: Choz4Life on September 16, 2011, 04:33:10 PM

Quote from: pmg911 on September 16, 2011, 04:04:25 PM

Maybe one day America's minor-league basketball system wont have anytin to do wit institutions of higher learnin.

And then you will have even fewer young people today without opportunities to go to college and get a free education

And then you will have more young people being justly compensated for their talents like y'all free market advocates stress.

Cartman slave...I mean, student athlete owner

You think D league money is worth more than a college education? ...

You're partially right on this, however most players that play in the D-League ALSO play overseas and the teams that they play for overseas pay them FAR more money than what a college education is usually worth. 

Quote from: qcredman on September 17, 2011, 09:27:52 AM

Quote from: SJUhoopNUT on September 17, 2011, 07:52:05 AM

Ceilia Goldberg, the prep school’s director, confirmed that the players each took three summer classes there but said the N.C.A.A. had not notified the school why the students’ credits were not accepted. She said the school had had dealings with the N.C.A.A. before and never encountered this problem.

“Their parents contacted me yesterday, upset,” Goldberg said Friday in a telephone interview. “They said the N.C.A.A. is questioning why they received A’s. They’re making it seem like they’re not smart enough to do well.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/17/sports/ncaabasketball/3-st-johns-basketball-recruits-are-ruled-ineligible.html?_r=1&ref=sports

See my post above. I've evaluated many transcripts and three students whose eligibility is at question taking three courses each at the same school and getting A's in every single one of them (that's 9 - count em) raises a red flag in regard to the standards of the institution. I don't know if they took the same courses with the same teachers but that would make it even more suspect.

Qcredman - Does the NCAA clearinghouse review the grades of all black students that get A's and puts those grades into suspicion or just those attending St. John's? The grades are what they are given any institution that grants those grades. If suspicious grades were the reason for denial of playing qualifications then the players have grounds for a lawsuit against the NCAA. A good legal team would question how so many football players in some high schools got some grades as the STARS at their schools!
 

I've never worked for the NCAA but there is no reason to believe that being black or intending to attend St. John's has anything to do with the decisions that were made. In theory - if the school in question is indeed NCAA approved - one would seem to have a legitimate law suit. In practice suing the NCAA is like suing the IRS. Your chances of success are slim to none.

Quote from: SJUhoopNUT on September 17, 2011, 07:52:05 AM

Ceilia Goldberg, the prep school’s director, confirmed that the players each took three summer classes there but said the N.C.A.A. had not notified the school why the students’ credits were not accepted. She said the school had had dealings with the N.C.A.A. before and never encountered this problem.

“Their parents contacted me yesterday, upset,” Goldberg said Friday in a telephone interview. “They said the N.C.A.A. is questioning why they received A’s. They’re making it seem like they’re not smart enough to do well.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/17/sports/ncaabasketball/3-st-johns-basketball-recruits-are-ruled-ineligible.html?_r=1&ref=sports

See my post above. I've evaluated many transcripts and three students whose eligibility is at question taking three courses each at the same school and getting A's in every single one of them (that's 9 - count em) raises a red flag in regard to the standards of the institution. I don't know if they took the same courses with the same teachers but that would make it even more suspect.

You're absolutely right that if a kid is getting C's and D's all his life and suddenly he pulls 3 A's, it would and maybe should raise a red flag.  HOWEVER, if the NCAA punished this student without any sort of evidence of corruption from the school or student, then that is flat out wrong. You would think that the NCAA would need evidence in order to damage a student's future like this, however as we all know, this is not how those folks work. 

Quote from: SJUhoopNUT on September 17, 2011, 07:52:05 AM

Ceilia Goldberg, the prep school’s director, confirmed that the players each took three summer classes there but said the N.C.A.A. had not notified the school why the students’ credits were not accepted. She said the school had had dealings with the N.C.A.A. before and never encountered this problem.

“Their parents contacted me yesterday, upset,” Goldberg said Friday in a telephone interview. “They said the N.C.A.A. is questioning why they received A’s. They’re making it seem like they’re not smart enough to do well.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/17/sports/ncaabasketball/3-st-johns-basketball-recruits-are-ruled-ineligible.html?_r=1&ref=sports

See my post above. I've evaluated many transcripts and three students whose eligibility is at question taking three courses each at the same school and getting A's in every single one of them (that's 9 - count em) raises a red flag in regard to the standards of the institution. I don't know if they took the same courses with the same teachers but that would make it even more suspect.

I dont get it.  If the school they attended is an accredited, approved school of higher learning then there should be no red flags.  Whats going on here? There has to be more to this story as according to my school law courses, the NCAA is going into areas it has no right to be.

Hopefully one day a judge'll agree that they is no social-mission of D1 revenue-generating sports and strips the non-profit status of the NCAA away.

Its a business yo. A sham business. 

I take issue with people who come on sites and make ridiculous statements about these "poor" schollie athletes who are being taken advantage of at universities. thats a load of crap.  For one, no one is forcing them to attend college and secondly, it is widely known that they dont have to function under the same rules that the rest of us do. The fact is, they are earning a good salary for what they are doing, get treated like royalty and get everything handed to them. Save your pity for the poor families with kids who get good grades but whose families cant afford to send them to a great school due to finances, there are plenty of stories like that around.

U mad bro?

Quote from: Celtics11 on September 16, 2011, 09:32:01 PM

You think D league money is worth more than a college education? Why don't we just make every kid who ever picked up a basketball a millionaire? Would that finally make you happy?

CBS will pay the NCAA $11 billion over 14 year to just broadcast the tourney alone.

That sound like D-league money to you?

No but the D league is an alternative if they don't want to accept a college schollie or go overseas. Nobody is holding a gun to their head to go to college. If they are good enough one year after their high school class graduates they can go to the NBA. But almost every player is not good enough to go straight to the NBA so college affords them free coaching to hone their skill (ie working with Rico Hines), exposure so they can be drafted or signed by someone and a college education. Hardly slave or mule like conditions as you descibed.

I really hope this didn't come down to the NCAA not believing that a trio of c students couldn't earn an A on their own.  They had the academic equivalent of a gun to their heads for a month.

That's exactly what appears to have happened from what I am reading. Should have mixed in a couple of B's so as not to wave a red flag.

Quote from: dR3w on September 16, 2011, 02:20:25 PM

Quote from: Redstormy80 on September 16, 2011, 01:20:35 PM

Quote from: bball purist on September 16, 2011, 11:03:31 AM

Here's a funny quote by a BB poster to lighten things up a bit:

"Coach Lavin actually had the players take their own tests?  nice person"

     ~ Coach Calipari

Seriously, this is me being bitter but how is it possible Kentucky's monster classes never have this problem but we do?

Just give it some time ... Coach C has left a long trail of garbage behind him (allegedly).  A leopard can't change its stripes

You mean spots??

Sorry, I was mixing my metaphors on purpose ... that's the reason for the smiley.

1. Lots of people who think of college sports as amateur sports think the kids are fairly compensated, using a private college figure of 40-50K per year.

Is college worth that much? Is it worth that much to everyone?

Because that changes rather wildly dependent on profession - you can't tell me someone who uses college as finishing school/ to get her "mrs" degree has the same value on college as someone whose goal is a 6-figure salary. Or do you mean the sticker price, which also varies wildly?

I loved college. I found a lot of value in it. But it's a bit of a scam. And it's necessary for many of us as an entry requirement into a certain class of job.

But if your job is basketball, school isn't really a requirement - it's only a requirement insofar as the NBA and NCAA collude to make it so. I'm not making the "pay the players" argument here, just trying to get y'all thinking with a little nuance about what "compensation" means. They are essentially forced to play in college - there is no secondary market for their talents.

2. Look, Lavin and the staff knew these guys had risky transcripts. Let's not get all on some "the NCAA is trying to screw the program" stuff here. Hopefully they'll get eligible.

I really hope this didn't come down to the NCAA not believing that a trio of c students couldn't earn an A on their own.  They had the academic equivalent of a gun to their heads for a month.

I'm not sure what's worse: these kids deserving C's and St. John's trying to pull a fast one on the NCAA and getting caught or the NCAA basically saying that these kids are too dumb to get the A's they earned. If the latter is the case, then these kids never had a shot to begin with because the NCAA were always going to deny them.

Quote from: realfan on September 17, 2011, 09:18:50 AM

I take issue with people who come on sites and make ridiculous statements about these "poor" schollie athletes who are being taken advantage of at universities. thats a load of crap.  For one, no one is forcing them to attend college and secondly, it is widely known that they dont have to function under the same rules that the rest of us do. The fact is, they are earning a good salary for what they are doing, get treated like royalty and get everything handed to them. Save your pity for the poor families with kids who get good grades but whose families cant afford to send them to a great school due to finances, there are plenty of stories like that around.

U mad bro?

Not at all........ Just think that there are plenty of stories out there of kids who are not athletically gifted, who do get good grades but cant afford a college education at a school of their choice due to the families financial situation.  those stories are far too many in today's economy.

This may sound hard to believe. But the 3 had their backs to the wall. Maybe they did indeed study their butts off and actually earn As.

Quote from: Choz4Life on September 17, 2011, 10:29:51 AM

Quote from: realfan on September 17, 2011, 09:18:50 AM

I take issue with people who come on sites and make ridiculous statements about these "poor" schollie athletes who are being taken advantage of at universities. thats a load of crap.  For one, no one is forcing them to attend college and secondly, it is widely known that they dont have to function under the same rules that the rest of us do. The fact is, they are earning a good salary for what they are doing, get treated like royalty and get everything handed to them. Save your pity for the poor families with kids who get good grades but whose families cant afford to send them to a great school due to finances, there are plenty of stories like that around.

U mad bro?

Not at all........ Just think that there are plenty of stories out there of kids who are not athletically gifted, who do get good grades but cant afford a college education at a school of their choice due to the families financial situation.  those stories are far too many in today's economy.

Heres the thing. I dont mean no disrepct to your son and I appreciate the arts immensely.

But the marketplace values an 18-year-old who can run and jump and sink a J at the highest level more than an 18-year-old who plays jazz at the highest level.

But the 18-year-old baller can't benefit by his talents to his fullest capacity because the NCAA is a multi-billion dollar monopoly under the guise of a non-profit wit a social mission.

The ballers are a labor force. The NCAA and its members are employers.  And the fans create the marketplace. 

Take away the NCAA and y'all still got the marketplace wanting to see (and pay for) 18-year-olds who can run and jump and sink a J. Except now, they can be justly compensated under a new employer.

So lemme ask you this... yo son ever get paid for a gig playin the sax while he was still in school? Even if he didn't he had the ability to. He had the ability to benefit from his talents to his fullest capacity. A baller cant do that. And thats the problem.

Peace out!

Choz I want to watch 18 yr old baller and will pay if he is wearing a Johnnie uni playing against other colleges. I am not going down to the park and paying to see some 18 yr olds in a pick up game. I'll watch NBA or high school.