Moe and the 2012 Draft

Derrick Rose and Iman Shumpert---- the reason I will never fault any kid for declaring for the draft.  Career can be too fragile.  Go get that money, kids.

 Yup! + 1

Fans perspective is meaningless .

Kareem not the shot blocker or rebounder that some of the other great centers were. Longevity not a good argument to say greatest ever-is 49 yr okd Jamie Moyer the greatest pitcher ever?

Hard to argue with you.  for instance, no one will EVER top Chamberlains performance with the Warriors.  His 6 year Warriors career was 41.5 pts per game and 25.2 rebounds over 429 games. 

But as for rebounding/shot blocking, I would disagree with you in terms of era's of play.  Russell was retired before Kareem joined the league.  Chamerlain/Kareem only overlapped 4 seasons.   Neither Russell or Chamberlain played a single game when the NBA tracked Blocked shots.    All you can do for Kareem is measure him against his contemporaries.   He led the league in blocks 4 times, was 2nd 3 times, and 3rd 1 time.   23 years after he retired, he's still #3 all time.  In his 14th season, the point in their respective careers both Bill and Wilt had retired, he was 3rd in blocks per game. He's 8th all time in that category, despite playing over 20 years in the league.  As for rebounding, again, eras.   He's #3 in league history in rebounds behind Bill and Wilt, yes due to his longevity.  But also because rebouding changed with the eras - he was in the top 3 in rebounding in the league 7 different seasons.  When Wilt and Bill were pulling down 20+ rebs a game, 6'5 Elgin Baylor was doing the same.   When Kareem led the leauge pulling down 16.9 rebs a game, Wes Unseld and Paul Silas were 2nd and 3rd at 13.3 and 12.7 rebs respectively.   

But I do get the point.   Sometimes stats are irrelevant.   Somethings can't be quantified.  If you SAW them, you don't HAVE to explain why Sandy Koufax was the greatest pitcher or that Secretariat was the greatest racehorse.  If you saw them, you just KNOW.   

Derrick Rose and Iman Shumpert---- the reason I will never fault any kid for declaring for the draft.  Career can be too fragile.  Go get that money, kids.

Iroically both of those guys left early.  I love how competiitive Rose is.  I hope he doesn't lose a step...I've really started to like him as a player after watching four grown men dance around like middle school girls at the all-star game intros while Rose just stood there ready to play, probably wondering why they weren't taking it seriously. 

Quote from: TRabinowitz on April 28, 2012, 05:51:13 PM

Derrick Rose and Iman Shumpert---- the reason I will never fault any kid for declaring for the draft.  Career can be too fragile.  Go get that money, kids.

Iroically both of those guys left early.  I love how competiitive Rose is.  I hope he doesn't lose a step...I've really started to like him as a player after watching four grown men dance around like middle school girls at the all-star game intros while Rose just stood there ready to play, probably wondering why they weren't taking it seriously.

 Agreed. DRose is not your typical, selfish NBA superstar.  Hope he makes a full recovery. Would have been a great representative for the Olympic team as well.  NBA needs more guys like Rose.

nbadraft.net now has Moe at #18 to the TWolves.  Slowly moving up the board.  With Beasley a restricted FA, this could be a great place for him, with Love and Pekovic entrenched at the PF and C, allowing Harkless to be played as a 3, or if they go small they could use Harkless at 4 and Love at C.

That said, more than anything, the Wolves need a SG, so I am not sure this will really turn out.  With the Celtics having a block of picks at 21/22 and Ainge loving taking younger players and those with potential who may have come out too early (Rondo, Perkins, Gerald Green, Avery Bradley, etc.) I think there's no way Harkless goes past 22.

One of the latest has Moe being drafted #8 by Pistons.  If that is the case, he made a great decision.  I don't think an NBA team can miss with Moe.  Productive years ahead for him.

One of the latest has Moe being drafted #8 by Pistons.  If that is the case, he made a great decision.  I don't think an NBA team can miss with Moe.  Productive years ahead for him.

8 would be great, but not realistic given the strength of this draft class.  Ford has Moe going at 25.  Who knows, Moe might have a great showing at the combine and jack his stock way up, or could just as easily fall out of the first round. 

nbadraft.net now has Moe at #18 to the TWolves.  Slowly moving up the board.  With Beasley a restricted FA, this could be a great place for him, with Love and Pekovic entrenched at the PF and C, allowing Harkless to be played as a 3, or if they go small they could use Harkless at 4 and Love at C.

That said, more than anything, the Wolves need a SG, so I am not sure this will really turn out.  With the Celtics having a block of picks at 21/22 and Ainge loving taking younger players and those with potential who may have come out too early (Rondo, Perkins, Gerald Green, Avery Bradley, etc.) I think there's no way Harkless goes past 22.

Agree dont see moe going past 22. Celtics would be a good fit but unfortunate for a NY kid :/.

The twovles did take Derick Williams with the 2nd overall pick last year so I dont see them taking moe.

Chad Ford has him going 24 to the Cavs in today's Mock. Kyrie Irving, Brad Beal (taken 3rd),Moe, Tristan Thompson and Anderson Varejao would be a solid foundation for the Cavs.

I know I really know nothing as merely a fan with no inside info, but I honestly could not see the Celtics not using one of two picks on him at 21 and 22.  Ainge has a history with early enrollees, and if Rondo is the future of the Celtics, Moe is exactly the type of player you want running with Rondo -- a gazelle.

I personally expect Moe to go around 15 when this is all said and done.

And amase, good call with derrick williams - totally forgot about him.

Good article from David Aldridge with some quotes from NBA execs praising Harkless. Has him as the 3rd best SF.

Harkless won Big East Rookie of the Year honors, averaging 15.5 points and 8.6 rebounds for the Red Storm. His 32 points in his conference debut against Providence set a conference record for scoring in a player's first Big East game, bettering marks set by Georgetown's Allen Iverson and Notre Dame's Troy Murphy.

An athletic 6-foot-8, Harkless is an even worse 3-point shooter than Kidd-Gilchrist (21.5 percent). But Harkless was on a preposterously young St. John's team -- he was one of nine freshmen who played for coach Steve Lavin -- and he was one of the best players on that team. Despite the Red Storm's 13-19 record, Harkless made an impression.

"For me, the most talented guy (after Kidd-Gilchrist and Barnes) is probably Harkless," said a Western Conference general manager. "He's got size, he's got length, he rebounds. He played out of position all year, which for him will be an adjustment. He can catch and shoot, at least. He's got a lot of long term upside. He's still really, really young. He produced in a good league and he had to play out of position. He's got some long term potential."

A Central Division exec seconds that emotion, saying, "of all the guys that put their name in early, he's the most intriguing to me."

Like most players coming out of college, Harkless would do better not going to a bad team. Scouts are worried about his ability to guard in space and off the dribble. He will also be making the adjustment from college power forward to NBA small forward.

"I've got him ahead of Taylor and Green and Joseph," said the Atlantic executive. "He'll be drafted ahead of those guys. Big upside. If you get him in the early 20s or something, that has a good team and can work with him, that's a good pick."

http://www.nba.com/news/features/david_aldridge/big-board-small-forwards/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1

Good article from David Aldridge with some quotes from NBA execs praising Harkless. Has him as the 3rd best SF.

Harkless won Big East Rookie of the Year honors, averaging 15.5 points and 8.6 rebounds for the Red Storm. His 32 points in his conference debut against Providence set a conference record for scoring in a player's first Big East game, bettering marks set by Georgetown's Allen Iverson and Notre Dame's Troy Murphy.

An athletic 6-foot-8, Harkless is an even worse 3-point shooter than Kidd-Gilchrist (21.5 percent). But Harkless was on a preposterously young St. John's team -- he was one of nine freshmen who played for coach Steve Lavin -- and he was one of the best players on that team. Despite the Red Storm's 13-19 record, Harkless made an impression.

"For me, the most talented guy (after Kidd-Gilchrist and Barnes) is probably Harkless," said a Western Conference general manager. "He's got size, he's got length, he rebounds. He played out of position all year, which for him will be an adjustment. He can catch and shoot, at least. He's got a lot of long term upside. He's still really, really young. He produced in a good league and he had to play out of position. He's got some long term potential."

A Central Division exec seconds that emotion, saying, "of all the guys that put their name in early, he's the most intriguing to me."

Like most players coming out of college, Harkless would do better not going to a bad team. Scouts are worried about his ability to guard in space and off the dribble. He will also be making the adjustment from college power forward to NBA small forward.

"I've got him ahead of Taylor and Green and Joseph," said the Atlantic executive. "He'll be drafted ahead of those guys. Big upside. If you get him in the early 20s or something, that has a good team and can work with him, that's a good pick."

http://www.nba.com/news/features/david_aldridge/big-board-small-forwards/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1

Sounds like some people on here might be eating crow at the end of June.  And it sure will be a good pitch for Lavs to tell the Lawrence's, McCullough's and Whitehead's of the city.

 From a fans perspective I hated the move, but it certainly looks like it was the correct decision.

Kid- For a whole I've felt the celtics would be A great landing spot for Moe.  Learning from Pierce and KG before stepping into that role.  Great set up for him. 

“@GoodmanCBS: Bradley Beal will sign with Mark Bartelstein, source told CBSSports. Beal a likely top 5 pick and could go as high as No. 2.”

Love this kid's strength, passion and athleticism.

Quote from: kingofk1ngs on April 30, 2012, 03:28:07 PM

Good article from David Aldridge with some quotes from NBA execs praising Harkless. Has him as the 3rd best SF.

Harkless won Big East Rookie of the Year honors, averaging 15.5 points and 8.6 rebounds for the Red Storm. His 32 points in his conference debut against Providence set a conference record for scoring in a player's first Big East game, bettering marks set by Georgetown's Allen Iverson and Notre Dame's Troy Murphy.

An athletic 6-foot-8, Harkless is an even worse 3-point shooter than Kidd-Gilchrist (21.5 percent). But Harkless was on a preposterously young St. John's team -- he was one of nine freshmen who played for coach Steve Lavin -- and he was one of the best players on that team. Despite the Red Storm's 13-19 record, Harkless made an impression.

"For me, the most talented guy (after Kidd-Gilchrist and Barnes) is probably Harkless," said a Western Conference general manager. "He's got size, he's got length, he rebounds. He played out of position all year, which for him will be an adjustment. He can catch and shoot, at least. He's got a lot of long term upside. He's still really, really young. He produced in a good league and he had to play out of position. He's got some long term potential."

A Central Division exec seconds that emotion, saying, "of all the guys that put their name in early, he's the most intriguing to me."

Like most players coming out of college, Harkless would do better not going to a bad team. Scouts are worried about his ability to guard in space and off the dribble. He will also be making the adjustment from college power forward to NBA small forward.

"I've got him ahead of Taylor and Green and Joseph," said the Atlantic executive. "He'll be drafted ahead of those guys. Big upside. If you get him in the early 20s or something, that has a good team and can work with him, that's a good pick."

http://www.nba.com/news/features/david_aldridge/big-board-small-forwards/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1

Sounds like some people on here might be eating crow at the end of June.  And it sure will be a good pitch for Lavs to tell the Lawrence's, McCullough's and Whitehead's of the city.

Hopefully.  The higher Moe goes, the better it is for St. John's.  I'm praying he can somehow be a lottery choice, but I know that is a reach.  Oh boy, Lavin is going to spin this for years!  FWIW, I think Moe has a much better shot that Kidd-Gilchrest and will be a fine outside shooter at the next level.  It just didn't fall this past year.

Quote from: Moose on April 30, 2012, 03:29:56 PM

Quote from: kingofk1ngs on April 30, 2012, 03:28:07 PM

Good article from David Aldridge with some quotes from NBA execs praising Harkless. Has him as the 3rd best SF.

Harkless won Big East Rookie of the Year honors, averaging 15.5 points and 8.6 rebounds for the Red Storm. His 32 points in his conference debut against Providence set a conference record for scoring in a player's first Big East game, bettering marks set by Georgetown's Allen Iverson and Notre Dame's Troy Murphy.

An athletic 6-foot-8, Harkless is an even worse 3-point shooter than Kidd-Gilchrist (21.5 percent). But Harkless was on a preposterously young St. John's team -- he was one of nine freshmen who played for coach Steve Lavin -- and he was one of the best players on that team. Despite the Red Storm's 13-19 record, Harkless made an impression.

"For me, the most talented guy (after Kidd-Gilchrist and Barnes) is probably Harkless," said a Western Conference general manager. "He's got size, he's got length, he rebounds. He played out of position all year, which for him will be an adjustment. He can catch and shoot, at least. He's got a lot of long term upside. He's still really, really young. He produced in a good league and he had to play out of position. He's got some long term potential."

A Central Division exec seconds that emotion, saying, "of all the guys that put their name in early, he's the most intriguing to me."

Like most players coming out of college, Harkless would do better not going to a bad team. Scouts are worried about his ability to guard in space and off the dribble. He will also be making the adjustment from college power forward to NBA small forward.

"I've got him ahead of Taylor and Green and Joseph," said the Atlantic executive. "He'll be drafted ahead of those guys. Big upside. If you get him in the early 20s or something, that has a good team and can work with him, that's a good pick."

http://www.nba.com/news/features/david_aldridge/big-board-small-forwards/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1

Sounds like some people on here might be eating crow at the end of June.  And it sure will be a good pitch for Lavs to tell the Lawrence's, McCullough's and Whitehead's of the city.

Hopefully.  The higher Moe goes, the better it is for St. John's.  I'm praying he can somehow be a lottery choice, but I know that is a reach.  Oh boy, Lavin is going to spin this for years!  FWIW, I think Moe has a much better shot that Kidd-Gilchrest and will be a fine outside shooter at the next level.  It just didn't fall this past year.

This is precisely the reason why the vitriol towards Moe was not only misguided but more importantly they could not see the added benefit from this.  Lavin puts guys in the pros, it is a HUGE plus.

While Lavins track record speaks for itself , it seems a bit disingenuous to state Lavin got Moe to the NBA. 

I'm not a negative poster and love this team and staff, but you know that this is the haters/ flamers of the board response.  Like I said , Lavins has a ton of kids in the league, but from a coaching perspective , he probably had the least influence on Moe. 

Just sayin.

I just see the positives here all around.  Lavin gets credit, Dunlap gets credit, SJU gets credit, NYC gets credit, and most importantly the small but influencial group known as johnnyjungle that dictates recruiting, lineups, game plans, etc.  Moe continues to be the "pied piper" for 21st century SJU basketball, and while his absence will be felt next year he'll continue to impact our program from the NBA.

While Lavins track record speaks for itself , it seems a bit disingenuous to state Lavin got Moe to the NBA. 

I'm not a negative poster and love this team and staff, but you know that this is the haters/ flamers of the board response.  Like I said , Lavins has a ton of kids in the league, but from a coaching perspective , he probably had the least influence on Moe. 

Just sayin.

If it makes you feel better, Boo, just change that from "Lavin gets players to the NBA" to "Lavin is PERCEIVED to get players to the NBA" - cause that's what in the end is important - how do future recruits PERCEIVE  Lavin's effectiveness at getting them NBA looks?   

Having Lavin has drawn more attentioin to the program and it's players than has the past coupld regimes - signees have gotten a LOT more publicity simply for COMING to SJU than in previous years - they're on the radar almost from Day 1.   And, as he was "one of their own" for nearly a decade, ESPN gives his team and his players more exposure than the same players would if Norm were still here.  Lavin's got double digit players IN the league, most of them apparently putting out a good word for SJU kids - most of them have been to SJU and run in pickup games with our kids. Lavin has got Rico and Dunlap on his staff, both of whose opinions are HIGHLY respected by NBA teams.  trust me, if formerGeorge Karl right-hand man Dunlap calls to tell the Nuggets that Moe's the real deal, Karl is taking the call!....and Rico has trained/improved players for half the teams in the League - when Rico talks up Moe's potential, teams ARE listening.  Lav's has a former assistant coach who's Director of Player Personell for the the New Orleans Hornets.  Gerald Madkins is gonna take Lav's call for Moe, or for D'lo or even Gift (if not as a draft pick, for a summer league roster for GG) next year.   And if the phone rings in the San Franciso Warriors offices, new GM Bob Myers - whom Lav's recruited and was his position coachat UCLA, and then later his head coach, and who was team captain for Lav's at UCLA - is gonna take THAT call....

There's a lot of ways a coach "gets" a player to the NBA.  Even more ways he's "perceived" to have done so!  Heck, all the reasons above, and I didn't even mention actually PREPARING the kids via coaching, training, conditioning, exprience in multiple defenses, multiple offenses, utilizing players at multiple positions, etc.